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will freethinkers accept god if they find evidence?
Posted: 25 April 2013 01:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 136 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 25 April 2013 10:50 AM

If you have a clue, you are certainly able to explain , how the radar system of bats evolved.

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A careful reading of richard Dawkins’s explanation would be a good start. Look up his reference if you dare to know the facts. Here’s a brief paper from the Royal Society that may suffice as a beginning to your research. I’ve read the bible many times but for the life of me I’ve never read a detailed explanation of the process of echolocation in bats. Genesis perhaps?


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919403/


Cap’t Jack

please present the part of the paper, which explains in details what mechanisms where involved to make evolution happen. I am all ears.

http://www.creationism.org/batman/bats.htm

In Bioscience, May 1992, we find this quote:
“Unfortunately, the fossils available only complicate matters.  They do not represent transitional morphology between quadrupedal (four-footed) animals and flying bats, and they represent animals nearly as specialized as their modern relatives”  (Thewessin p. 340).

And in Bats:  A Natural History, John Hill says almost the same thing:
“...all fossil bats, even the oldest, are clearly fully-developed bats and so they shed little light on the transition from their terrestrial ancestor” (Hill p. 33).

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Posted: 25 April 2013 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 137 ]
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please present the part of the paper, which explains in details what mechanisms where involved to make evolution happen. I am all ears.

No you’re not.

I already posted a link to the Talkorigins website which ecplains in detail how it all works.

It’s excruciatingly obvious that you simply ignored it.

I’m not going to waste any more of my time with you.

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Posted: 25 April 2013 03:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 138 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 25 April 2013 02:59 PM

please present the part of the paper, which explains in details what mechanisms where involved to make evolution happen. I am all ears.

No you’re not.

I already posted a link to the Talkorigins website which ecplains in detail how it all works.

It’s excruciatingly obvious that you simply ignored it.

I’m not going to waste any more of my time with you.

please show at talk origins where it explains how bat echolon evolved.

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Posted: 25 April 2013 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 139 ]
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Adonai888 - 25 April 2013 03:16 PM

please show at talk origins where it explains how bat echolon evolved.

This is simply a god-of-the-gaps argument. Read this. Just because bat evolution is poorly understood does not mean any particular god created them or guided their evolution. Please educate yourself.

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Posted: 25 April 2013 04:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 140 ]
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DarronS - 25 April 2013 03:26 PM
Adonai888 - 25 April 2013 03:16 PM

please show at talk origins where it explains how bat echolon evolved.

This is simply a god-of-the-gaps argument..

http://www.creationtips.com/bat_origin.html

when we look at the “scientific” alternative, that bats evolved from an unknown ancestor at an unknown time in the past with unexplained ways of how their unique abilities developed, we feel extremely comfortable in accepting the “unscientific” creation idea.

http://www.icr.org/article/221/

Discover admits, “The genealogy [i.e., evolutionary ancestry] of bats is a murky matter, though, and has inspired some pretty exotic ideas"2 and “. . . bats pose one of evolution’s supreme puzzles.

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Posted: 25 April 2013 04:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 141 ]
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Adonai888 - 25 April 2013 04:01 PM

when we look at the “scientific” alternative, that bats evolved from an unknown ancestor at an unknown time in the past with unexplained ways of how their unique abilities developed, we feel extremely comfortable in accepting the “unscientific” creation idea..

Thank you for confirming you are using a god-of-the-gaps argument. I’m with EOC. Goodbye.

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Posted: 25 April 2013 04:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 142 ]
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DarronS - 25 April 2013 04:03 PM
Adonai888 - 25 April 2013 04:01 PM

when we look at the “scientific” alternative, that bats evolved from an unknown ancestor at an unknown time in the past with unexplained ways of how their unique abilities developed, we feel extremely comfortable in accepting the “unscientific” creation idea..

Thank you for confirming you are using a god-of-the-gaps argument. I’m with EOC. Goodbye.

And what are you using ? ET as default position, even if there is no evidence at all to back up the theory ? The fossil record has not helped support your case at all…...

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Posted: 25 April 2013 11:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 143 ]
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Well, if adonai888 is right, I assume we should stop naming God ‘God’, but call him ‘Batman’.

At least the fossil record of humans is quite extended, but yeah, if evolution theory does not work for bats…

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Posted: 25 April 2013 11:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 144 ]
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What, no evidence of bat fossils?  Well then, there must be a god.
What, no evidence of miracles?  Well then, there must be a god.
What, no evidence of a god?  Well then there must be a god.

The lack of any kind of evidence for his existence speaks clearly to the fact of the existence of a god.
Oops, wasn’t that the modus operandi of the devil, the trickster?

Adonai, answer me this. If there is a God, is the Devil part of Him?

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Posted: 26 April 2013 03:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 145 ]
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Write4U - 25 April 2013 11:34 PM

What, no evidence of bat fossils? 

i have not said there are no bat fossils…....

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Posted: 26 April 2013 06:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 146 ]
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Adonai888 - 26 April 2013 03:41 AM
Write4U - 25 April 2013 11:34 PM

What, no evidence of bat fossils? 

i have not said there are no bat fossils…....

Would you say bats have been around for longer than 6000 years?

Anyway, the whole point of evolution is that anything possible in physics will be tried by nature. Radar (sonar) is but one of many ways of processing wave frequencies for hunting purposes. Whales communicate with low frequency sound waves. Flies can see well into the infra red spectrum, other species can see ultraviolet. Birds flew long before man. A homing pigeon uses the earth magnetic fields to navigate. Fish swam long before man returned to submarine environment, some fish make electricity. Hominids descended from trees and started using tools long before man walked city streets.

If today we can make an instrument which can send or receive any kind of signal, it is already tried and exists in nature and is used by an organism to thrive in the most alien environments possible, there is ample evidence on earth. Man is a late comer and we are just discovering those natural phenomena and functions just like other animals. If there walks a platypus, a bat ain’t so remarkable.

This is where Scripture fails. It assigned divine intervention to the most mundane of physical interactions such as the formation of a perfect order of elements. But rather than irreducible complexity, everything can be broken down to smaller parts, each of which has its own and earlier version independent of the whole assembly.

It is all mathematical and the only problem is that science only recently has acquired the ability to process massive amounts of data and begin to explain the heretofore “miracles from god”, such as the existence of curved spacetime. If anything would fall under the auspices of god it would be spacetime curvature, no?  God is gravity? God is chemical interaction? God is supernova?

Bats, bah,  bats are nocturnal and live in very restricted areas (caves) which does not allow the formation of a fossil record. When they die they fall into their own waste, which is highly acidic and tends to break down living organisms. No wonder there are no bats preserved in daylight locations such as other species.  But then, there are millions of species which left no trace of their entire existence. We don’t even know they existed at all.

But what species is god?

[ Edited: 26 April 2013 07:08 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 26 April 2013 07:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 147 ]
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Write4U - 26 April 2013 06:55 AM
Adonai888 - 26 April 2013 03:41 AM
Write4U - 25 April 2013 11:34 PM

What, no evidence of bat fossils? 

i have not said there are no bat fossils…....

Would you say bats have been around for longer than 6000 years?

Anyway, the whole point of evolution is that anything possible in physics will be tried by nature.

I didn’t know that nature had that goal.

 

Radar (sonar) is but one of many ways of processing wave frequencies for hunting purposes. Whales communicate with low frequency sound waves. Flies can see well into the infra red spectrum, other species can see ultraviolet. Birds flew long before man. A homing pigeon uses the earth magnetic fields to navigate. Fish swam long before man returned to submarine environment, hominids descended from trees long before man walked city streets.

which shows the fantastic intelligence of the creator.  Man needed thousands of years to find out about these things, with all its intelligence. And the solutions applied in nature are far more well elaborated , and complex.

This is where Scripture fails. It assigned divine intervention to the most mundane of physical interactions such as the formation of a perfect order of elements. But rather than irreducible complexity, everything can be broken down to smaller parts, each of which has its own and earlier version independent of the whole assembly.

thats a unfounded claim, without evidence whatsoever. What amazing faith you have….

It is all mathematical and the only problem is that science only recently has acquired the ability to process massive amounts of data and explain the heretofore “miracles from god”, such as the existence of curved spacetime. If anything would fall under the auspices of god it would be spacetime curvature, no?  God is gravity? God is chemical interaction? God is supernova?

no. I believe God is just the creator of all this. And it makes sense to believe so. How otherwise can it be explained rationally, that for example the gravitational force constant is finely tuned to a razors edge ?

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t191-the-fine-tune-constants-close-examination-one-by-one

gravitational force constant
if larger: stars would be too hot and would burn up quickly and unevenly|
if smaller: stars would be so cool that nuclear fusion would not ignite, thus no heavy element production

Bats, bah,  bats are nocturnal and live in very restricted areas (caves) which does not allow the formation of a fossil record. When they die they fall into their own waste, which is highly acidic and tends to break down living organisms. No wonder there are no bats preserved in daylight locations such as other species.  But then, there are millions of species which left no trace of their entire existence. We don’t even know they did exist.

So therefore the evolution theory is true. no kidding….

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Posted: 26 April 2013 07:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 148 ]
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Adonai888 - 26 April 2013 07:07 AM

I believe God is just the creator of all this. And it makes sense to believe so. How otherwise can it be explained rationally, that for example the gravitational force constant is finely tuned to a razors edge ?

And if one of your parents were to sneeze just a few seconds before they conceived you, you wouldn’t be here today, you perfectly fine-tuned human being. OTOH, maybe if they did sneeze just a little, your brain could have gotten wired in a way that would result in preventing you to make stuff up. I guess God doesn’t really like you that much. Maybe you believe in the false God or something.  smirk

[ Edited: 26 April 2013 07:34 AM by George ]
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Posted: 26 April 2013 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 149 ]
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please present the part of the paper, which explains in details what mechanisms where involved to make evolution happen. I am all ears.

Ok, I believe your original contention was questioning the echolocation of bats and how that evolved and the article outlined it for you. Now the problem seems to be no bat fossils. This can also be explained in an article but more thoroughly in a book. If you care to step outside of the ID bubble and actually research the topic, I suggest Jerry Coyne’s excellent book “Why Evolution is True” for a start. Dawkins “The Blind Watchmaker” is another and there are many others. You may already know that fossils aren’t the only evidence to bolster the theory of evolution (remember, a theory is NOT a hypothesis); genetic evidence is yet another. I’m also surprised that you haven’t played the ID trump card yet , the eye an old irreducible complexity argument, explained by Dawkins and Coyne. And BTW the “mechanism” is natural selection. This site presents your argument and it’s refutation.

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2004/11/a-quantum-leap.html


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 26 April 2013 07:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 150 ]
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Adonai888 - 26 April 2013 07:07 AM
Write4U - 26 April 2013 06:55 AM
Adonai888 - 26 April 2013 03:41 AM
Write4U - 25 April 2013 11:34 PM

What, no evidence of bat fossils? 

i have not said there are no bat fossils…....

Would you say bats have been around for longer than 6000 years?

Anyway, the whole point of evolution is that anything possible in physics will be tried by nature.

I didn’t know that nature had that goal.

Nature has no goals. That is a human trait. But in a dynamic environment, time is a great experimenter.

Radar (sonar) is but one of many ways of processing wave frequencies for hunting purposes. Whales communicate with low frequency sound waves. Flies can see well into the infra red spectrum, other species can see ultraviolet. Birds flew long before man. A homing pigeon uses the earth magnetic fields to navigate. Fish swam long before man returned to submarine environment, hominids descended from trees long before man walked city streets.

which shows the fantastic intelligence of the creator.  Man needed thousands of years to find out about these things, with all its intelligence. And the solutions applied in nature are far more well elaborated , and complex.

Wow, man needed thousands of years to find out about the way the universe has functioned for 14 billion years? Actually, the first few thousand years all unexplained events were miracles from the gods. Modern science has been around for a few thousand years, yes. So our limitations lets us to conclude that only a god could have given birth to this universal construct.

This is where Scripture fails. It assigned divine intervention to the most mundane of physical interactions such as the formation of a perfect order of elements. But rather than irreducible complexity, everything can be broken down to smaller parts, each of which has its own and earlier version independent of the whole assembly.

thats a unfounded claim, without evidence whatsoever. What amazing faith you have….

Well, actually it was proven in a court of law no less. The court sided with scientific evidence. 

It is all mathematical and the only problem is that science only recently has acquired the ability to process massive amounts of data and explain the heretofore “miracles from god”, such as the existence of curved spacetime. If anything would fall under the auspices of god it would be spacetime curvature, no?  God is gravity? God is chemical interaction? God is supernova?

no. I believe God is just the creator of all this. And it makes sense to believe so. How otherwise can it be explained rationally, that for example the gravitational force constant is finely tuned to a razors edge ?
http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t191-the-fine-tune-constants-close-examination-one-by-one

gravitational force constant
if larger: stars would be too hot and would burn up quickly and unevenly|
if smaller: stars would be so cool that nuclear fusion would not ignite, thus no heavy element production

Of course all these things are true for this universe. Why do you insist on a larger leeway than that exists? Whith different constants the universe would have been different, if at all. But that doesn’t prove “intent”.  It did take a long, long time, is that so that dynamic interactions “in accordance with natural constants for this universe” produced this very universe. Yep, undeniably so.

Supernatural sentient intelligence.  Will you defend the knowledge of the existence of Xenu?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu

Bats, bah,  bats are nocturnal and live in very restricted areas (caves) which does not allow the formation of a fossil record. When they die they fall into their own waste, which is highly acidic and tends to break down living organisms. No wonder there are no bats preserved in daylight locations such as other species.  But then, there are millions of species which left no trace of their entire existence. We don’t even know they did exist.

So therefore the evolution theory is true. no kidding….

No, unlike your argument (god of the gaps), the argument for evolution does not depend on the citation of a single nocturnal species, but on an overwhelming amount of demonstrable evidence in tens of thousands of other species where the divergence of world lines in adaptive survival traits and behaviors was clearly traceable.

Check out, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

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