16 of 28
16
will freethinkers accept god if they find evidence?
Posted: 29 April 2013 06:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 226 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1283
Joined  2011-03-12

Perhaps it’s time to send this troll packing.

NOBODY is this incredibly stupid who lives long enough to reach adulthood. The only conclusion I can come to is that this guy/gal knows EXACTLY what s/he’s doing and is baiting us.

Enough is enough.

 Signature 

Question authority and think for yourself. Big Brother does not know best and never has.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 April 2013 06:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 227 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15395
Joined  2006-02-14
Adonai888 - 29 April 2013 03:35 PM
Write4U - 29 April 2013 03:07 PM
Adonai888 - 29 April 2013 02:39 PM
Write4U - 29 April 2013 02:35 PM

Easy, In the Beginning there was NO god. God

baseless assertion. thats how you will try to convince me ?

Now I am getting annoyed. You are selectively quoting my statements and I will not tolerate that. On the off chance that you have trouble understanding simple English I shall repeat the entire statement once more.

“In the Beginning there was NO god. God (the recurring pseudo intelligent functions of universal constants) came into existence along with spacetime). Case closed.”

Contrary to your debating techniques I do provide alternative answers, which you so easily seem to discard and ignore. Who are you trying to fool?

You made a absolute assertion. therefore you need to provide proofs to back up your claim. Since you don’t have any, how about you stop making these baseless assertions ?

Adonai, trolling is against the rules. If you have counterarguments, please provide them. Participation without meaningful development or responsive discussion may lead to banning. Thanks.

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 April 2013 06:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 228 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  384
Joined  2009-05-03
dougsmith - 29 April 2013 06:58 PM
Adonai888 - 29 April 2013 03:35 PM
Write4U - 29 April 2013 03:07 PM
Adonai888 - 29 April 2013 02:39 PM
Write4U - 29 April 2013 02:35 PM

Easy, In the Beginning there was NO god. God

baseless assertion. thats how you will try to convince me ?

Now I am getting annoyed. You are selectively quoting my statements and I will not tolerate that. On the off chance that you have trouble understanding simple English I shall repeat the entire statement once more.

“In the Beginning there was NO god. God (the recurring pseudo intelligent functions of universal constants) came into existence along with spacetime). Case closed.”

Contrary to your debating techniques I do provide alternative answers, which you so easily seem to discard and ignore. Who are you trying to fool?

You made a absolute assertion. therefore you need to provide proofs to back up your claim. Since you don’t have any, how about you stop making these baseless assertions ?

Adonai, trolling is against the rules. If you have counterarguments, please provide them. Participation without meaningful development or responsive discussion may lead to banning. Thanks.

I see. The participants are unable to provide fundamented, well explained, positive and convincing evidence for their case, and so try to discredit me as being a Troll. Thats a open aknowledgement for loosing the debate.

I am a troll ??!!

fine. Lets play that game.

Finally the ancestor of bats has been found. Its the super rat, called Rattus Clark Kent-icus :

 photo super_rat_zpsdb909571.jpg

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 April 2013 06:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 229 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  384
Joined  2009-05-03
Thevillageatheist - 29 April 2013 09:09 AM

Thevillageatheist - 29 April 2013 08:43 AM
Which is why I gave up trying back on post 149 when he attempted to refute the science behind bat wings.

you mean the science, where rats began to jump, to catch insects, and became bats ??!!


Thanks, you just made my point fella! Bye now.


Cap’t Jack

Did i make your point, or mine ?

I meant it quit serious , when i wrote:

you mean the science, where rats began to jump, to catch insects, and became bats ??!!

http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/u/mairas/pubs/echolocation_in_bats.pdf

It was suggested by Jepsen (1970) that proto-bats captured insects by jumping and hovering, and selection favoring to hovering may have led to the evolution of true
powered flight.

amazing. Now that’s the best explanation scientists can come up with to explain how bats evolved ??!! come on, thats simply ridiculous…..
But since its religion, supporters of the evolution theory simply believe it.

incredible !!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 April 2013 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 230 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
Adonai888 - 29 April 2013 12:58 PM
Lois - 29 April 2013 11:34 AM

You claim your god is eternal (with no evidence of it, by the way) but you claim the universe cannot be.  Why is that? You claim that everything must be created, but not god.  Where is your evidence for this extraordinary claim?


.....

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t199-evidence-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning

there are several reasons :

The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago.” Stephen Hawking The Beginning of Time

Alexander Vilenkin is Professor of Physics and Director of the Institute of Cosmology at Tufts University. A theoretical physicist who has been working in the field of cosmology for 25 years, Vilenkin has written over 150 papers and is responsible for introducing the ideas of eternal inflation and quantum creation of the universe from nothing.

Vilenkin is blunt about the implications:

It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning (Many Worlds in One [New York: Hill and Wang, 2006], p.176).

the existence of an actually infinite number of things is metaphysically impossible. If the universe never began to exist, then its past duration would be actually infinite. [5] Since actual infinities cannot exist, then the past duration of the universe must have been finite, implying that the universe must have begun to exist. Even if one grants that it is possible for an actual infinite to exist, it still cannot be formed by successive addition, and henceforth the past duration of the universe must be finite. From a scientific perspective, the beginning of the universe is strongly supported by modern big bang cosmology. The proponent of the KCA thus finds himself comfortably seated in the midst of mainstream cosmology. Combined, these two reasons lend strong support to the truth of the second premise. Additionally, an eternal universe is ruled out by the second law of thermodynamics.

Potential infinities are sets that are constantly increasing toward infinity as a limit, but never attain infinite status. A more accurate description would be to say that their members are indefinite. An actual infinite, by contrast, is a set x that contains a subset x’ that is equivalent to x. “The crucial difference between an infinite set and an indefinite collection would be that the former is conceived as a determinate whole actually possessing an infinite number of members, while the latter never actually attains infinity, although it increases perpetually. We have, then, three types of collection that we must keep conceptually distinct: finite, infinite, and indefinite.

The universe as we know it had a beginning, but it became what it is from materials already in existence.  That is form of eternal existence. 

You are attempting to use an anti-creationist theory (the big bang) to try to support your creationist theory.  It simply won’t work.  if a god created the universe from nothing it can’t also have come into existence by other means.  You are begging the question. 


.......

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 April 2013 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 231 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  384
Joined  2009-05-03
Lois - 30 April 2013 10:52 AM

The universe as we know it had a beginning, but it became what it is from materials already in existence.  That is form of eternal existence.

 

It seems you have not read carefully, or not understood my arguments.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t199-evidence-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning

Arno Penzias told me: “So what we find – the simplest theory – the one that the astronomers normally espouse, is a creation out of nothing, the appearance out of nothing of a universe.” And in my most recent interview with Robert Jastrow, he said, “It’s a curiously theological result to come out of science.”

  if a god created the universe from nothing it can’t also have come into existence by other means.  You are begging the question. 
.

as explained previously : i don’t believe in a created God, but in a Got that exists without beginning, and without a end, but eternally is.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 April 2013 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 232 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4840
Joined  2007-10-05
Adonai888 - 29 April 2013 12:58 PM

If the universe never began to exist, then its past duration would be actually infinite. [5] Since actual infinities cannot exist, then the past duration of the universe must have been finite, implying that the universe must have begun to exist

Adonai888 - 30 April 2013 11:01 AM

i don’t believe in a created God, but in a Got that exists without beginning, and without a end, but eternally is.

You are contradicting yourself. If infinities cannot exist god cannot be eternal.

 Signature 

“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 April 2013 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 233 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  384
Joined  2009-05-03
DarronS - 30 April 2013 11:08 AM
Adonai888 - 29 April 2013 12:58 PM

If the universe never began to exist, then its past duration would be actually infinite. [5] Since actual infinities cannot exist, then the past duration of the universe must have been finite, implying that the universe must have begun to exist

Adonai888 - 30 April 2013 11:01 AM

i don’t believe in a created God, but in a Got that exists without beginning, and without a end, but eternally is.

You are contradicting yourself. If infinities cannot exist god cannot be eternal.

http://www.godsci.com/gs/new/infinity.html

It is impossible to count to infinity. No matter how long you count, you will always be at a finite number (and will never reach infinity).
Similarly, no physical entity can cross an infinity by addition (i.e, by sequential addition of finite quantities).
Therefore, the physical universe could not have existed for ever. (To have existed for ever, the physical universe would have had to have crossed an infinity of time, i.e., an infinite number of finite moments of time).

God however can exist in a timeless dimension.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 April 2013 11:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 234 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4840
Joined  2007-10-05
Adonai888 - 30 April 2013 11:43 AM

It is impossible to count to infinity. No matter how long you count, you will always be at a finite number (and will never reach infinity).
Similarly, no physical entity can cross an infinity by addition (i.e, by sequential addition of finite quantities).
Therefore, the physical universe could not have existed for ever. (To have existed for ever, the physical universe would have had to have crossed an infinity of time, i.e., an infinite number of finite moments of time).

God however can exist in a timeless dimension.

This is known as special pleading.

 Signature 

“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 April 2013 12:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 235 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  384
Joined  2009-05-03
DarronS - 30 April 2013 11:44 AM
Adonai888 - 30 April 2013 11:43 AM

It is impossible to count to infinity. No matter how long you count, you will always be at a finite number (and will never reach infinity).
Similarly, no physical entity can cross an infinity by addition (i.e, by sequential addition of finite quantities).
Therefore, the physical universe could not have existed for ever. (To have existed for ever, the physical universe would have had to have crossed an infinity of time, i.e., an infinite number of finite moments of time).

God however can exist in a timeless dimension.

This is known as special pleading.

Atheists have held until the beginning of the 20th century, that the universe was eternal, uncaused. So why is it not special pleading, to assert the universe could be eternal, but in case of God, it is ?

[ Edited: 30 April 2013 12:26 PM by Adonai888 ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 April 2013 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 236 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
Adonai888 - 30 April 2013 11:01 AM
Lois - 30 April 2013 10:52 AM

The universe as we know it had a beginning, but it became what it is from materials already in existence.  That is form of eternal existence.

 

It seems you have not read carefully, or not understood my arguments.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t199-evidence-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning

Arno Penzias told me: “So what we find – the simplest theory – the one that the astronomers normally espouse, is a creation out of nothing, the appearance out of nothing of a universe.” And in myJ most recent interview with Robert Jastrow, he said, “It’s a curiously theological result to come out of science.”

  if a god created the universe from nothing it can’t also have come into existence by other means.  You are begging the question. 
.

as explained previously : i don’t believe in a created God, but in a Got that exists without beginning, and without a end, but eternally is.

That’s the problem.  You hold this belief without a scrap of evidence that it’s true.  And you expect others to embrace that belief without a scrap of evidence to support it. Boldly stating it as you do is completely useless. Nothing changes because you say you believe something.

Lois

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 April 2013 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 237 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27

.

[ Edited: 30 April 2013 03:23 PM by Lois ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 April 2013 04:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 238 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  384
Joined  2009-05-03
Lois - 30 April 2013 03:20 PM

That’s the problem.  You hold this belief without a scrap of evidence that it’s true.  And you expect others to embrace that belief without a scrap of evidence to support it. Boldly stating it as you do is completely useless. Nothing changes because you say you believe something.

Lois

I have provided already a lot of evidence here. If you are unwilling to aknowledge it,i cannot help you further.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 April 2013 05:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 239 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
Adonai888 - 30 April 2013 11:43 AM
DarronS - 30 April 2013 11:08 AM
Adonai888 - 29 April 2013 12:58 PM

If the universe never began to exist, then its past duration would be actually infinite. [5] Since actual infinities cannot exist, then the past duration of the universe must have been finite, implying that the universe must have begun to exist

Adonai888 - 30 April 2013 11:01 AM

i don’t believe in a created God, but in a Got that exists without beginning, and without a end, but eternally is.

You are contradicting yourself. If infinities cannot exist god cannot be eternal.

http://www.godsci.com/gs/new/infinity.html

It is impossible to count to infinity. No matter how long you count, you will always be at a finite number (and will never reach infinity).
Similarly, no physical entity can cross an infinity by addition (i.e, by sequential addition of finite quantities).
Therefore, the physical universe could not have existed for ever. (To have existed for ever, the physical universe would have had to have crossed an infinity of time, i.e., an infinite number of finite moments of time).

God however can exist in a timeless dimension.

Because you believe this? Why should your beliefs mean something when others’ beliefs do not?  How do you determine which beliefs are valid and which are not except that you like yours better?

Lois

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 April 2013 05:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 240 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
Adonai888 - 30 April 2013 04:47 PM
Lois - 30 April 2013 03:20 PM

That’s the problem.  You hold this belief without a scrap of evidence that it’s true.  And you expect others to embrace that belief without a scrap of evidence to support it. Boldly stating it as you do is completely useless. Nothing changes because you say you believe something.

Lois

I have provided already a lot of evidence here. If you are unwilling to aknowledge it,i cannot help you further.

You have provided no evidence, only belief.  If you are unwilling to acknowledge that, neither I nor anyone who embraces the scientific system,  can help you further. You apparently don’t know what empirical evidence means, or you reject it for religious reasons, and that is very sad.

Profile
 
 
   
16 of 28
16