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will freethinkers accept god if they find evidence?
Posted: 01 May 2013 04:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 256 ]
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Adonai888 - 01 May 2013 03:51 AM

From an evolutionary stand point, there is no good explanation for this relationship between the tree, orchid, bee and rodent.

Of course there is an evolutionary explanation. None of the four species existed in its present form in the past. There was a time when they looked and behaved differently and didn’t need each other. What’s the problem?

[ Edited: 01 May 2013 06:07 AM by George ]
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Posted: 01 May 2013 04:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 257 ]
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That pesky irreducible complexity again. As if numbers and odds of explication have any meaning in a universe of infinite potential and indefinite complexity.

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Posted: 01 May 2013 07:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 258 ]
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Adonai888 - 30 April 2013 08:51 PM
Lois - 30 April 2013 08:10 PM

What evidence do you want me to provide?
.

Since nobody was able to explain, how bats evolved, we can go to the next issue.

Please present me one example of codified information, that had not a mind as origin.

That’s not a specific request.  In addition, I was not involved in the discussion about bats.  I did not comment on that discussion at all.

If you want evidence of a claim I have made, please describe the specific claim you think I have made and for which you want evidence.

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Posted: 01 May 2013 08:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 259 ]
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Write4U - 01 May 2013 04:40 AM

And a little search produced this:  http://motls.blogspot.com/2009/08/why-lee-smolin-is-immoral-double-faced.html

What has Lee Smolins morality have to do with a scientific fact he found out ?

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Posted: 01 May 2013 08:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 260 ]
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George - 01 May 2013 04:43 AM
Adonai888 - 01 May 2013 03:51 AM

From an evolutionary stand point, there is no good explanation for this relationship between the tree, orchid, bee and rodent.

Of course there is an evolutionary explanation. None of the four species existed in its present form in the past. There was a time when they looked and behaved differently and didn’t need each other. What’s the problem?

So sometime in the past, each decided that they wanted to start to depend from the other ?

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Posted: 01 May 2013 08:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 261 ]
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Write4U - 01 May 2013 04:50 AM

That pesky irreducible complexity again. As if numbers and odds of explication have any meaning in a universe of infinite potential and indefinite complexity.

infinite potential is just something from the abstract world, which has no meaning in the real world.

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Posted: 01 May 2013 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 262 ]
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Adonai888 - 01 May 2013 08:10 AM
George - 01 May 2013 04:43 AM
Adonai888 - 01 May 2013 03:51 AM

From an evolutionary stand point, there is no good explanation for this relationship between the tree, orchid, bee and rodent.

Of course there is an evolutionary explanation. None of the four species existed in its present form in the past. There was a time when they looked and behaved differently and didn’t need each other. What’s the problem?

So sometime in the past, each decided that they wanted to start to depend from the other ?

Decided? What do you mean? The process of evolution begins with a mutation. Some mutations in those four species happened around the same and because they were evolutionarily advantageous (those who had the mutation went on to produce more offspring than those who didn’t have them) they turned into adaptations where all the members of those species now have the given characteristic. Nobody decided anything.

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Posted: 01 May 2013 08:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 263 ]
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George - 01 May 2013 08:33 AM

Decided? What do you mean? The process of evolution begins with a mutation. Some mutations in those four species happened around the same and because they were evolutionarily advantageous (those who had the mutation went on to produce more offspring than those who didn’t have them) they turned into adaptations where all the members of those species now have the given characteristic. Nobody decided anything.

So why would there be a advantage, these to depend from each other ?

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Posted: 01 May 2013 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 264 ]
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Adonai888 - 01 May 2013 08:36 AM
George - 01 May 2013 08:33 AM

Decided? What do you mean? The process of evolution begins with a mutation. Some mutations in those four species happened around the same and because they were evolutionarily advantageous (those who had the mutation went on to produce more offspring than those who didn’t have them) they turned into adaptations where all the members of those species now have the given characteristic. Nobody decided anything.

So why would there be a advantage, these to depend from each other ?

Think of the many species of bacteria in your guts to help you digest food, which in turn is also advantageous for the bacteria as they have a place to eat and procreate. You both win.

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Posted: 01 May 2013 08:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 265 ]
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George - 01 May 2013 08:57 AM

Think of the many species of bacteria in your guts to help you digest food, which in turn is also advantageous for the bacteria as they have a place to eat and procreate. You both win.

and how would one know of the other , and that depend from it, would be a advantage ?

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Posted: 01 May 2013 09:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 266 ]
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Adonai888 - 01 May 2013 08:59 AM
George - 01 May 2013 08:57 AM

Think of the many species of bacteria in your guts to help you digest food, which in turn is also advantageous for the bacteria as they have a place to eat and procreate. You both win.

and how would one know of the other , and that depend from it, would be a advantage ?

I am having some difficulties understanding you here.

They don’t initially “know” of each other. Most mutation (the ones that code for protein) are actually bad for us, but some mutations turn out to be advantageous as they can “discover” (unintentionally, of course) new resources to help us survive and procreate.

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Posted: 01 May 2013 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 267 ]
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George - 01 May 2013 09:09 AM
Adonai888 - 01 May 2013 08:59 AM
George - 01 May 2013 08:57 AM

Think of the many species of bacteria in your guts to help you digest food, which in turn is also advantageous for the bacteria as they have a place to eat and procreate. You both win.

and how would one know of the other , and that depend from it, would be a advantage ?

I am having some difficulties understanding you here.

They don’t initially “know” of each other. Most mutation (the ones that code for protein) are actually bad for us, but some mutations turn out to be advantageous as they can “discover” (unintentionally, of course) new resources to help us survive and procreate.

let us remember, what the problem is, that you have to solve :

Remove the orchid from the scene and the bees won’t mate and if they don’t mate, the flowers do not get pollinated and produce seed pods.  Remove the agouti from the scene and the opened seed pods do not get buried and germinate into new trees, thus greatly reducing the number of new trees to replace the older ones.

you have a classical irreducibility problem, which you cannot solve with a gradual evolution step, since each one needs the other since the beginning.

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Posted: 01 May 2013 10:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 268 ]
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There’s your problem, Adonai, assuming that “each one needs the other since the beginning”.  Your monolithic insistence upon your “intelligent design” concept makes it impossible for you to understand a basic fact—that life is not static.  It wasn’t “created” once and just sat there.  Life evolves!  That’s something it took centuries for us to understand.  I admit that it requires a certain leap of imagination to grasp it.  Your problem is that you’re not even trying.  Therefore there is no point in trying to explain it to you.

You sit there insisting that we give a precise step-by-step explanation for how the bat evolved (which is not possible since we don’t have a clear fossil record for the bat).  What if you held yourself to the same standard?  When can we expect a precise, step-by-step explanation for how your God created the universe?

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Posted: 01 May 2013 10:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 269 ]
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Adonai888 - 01 May 2013 08:11 AM
Write4U - 01 May 2013 04:50 AM

That pesky irreducible complexity again. As if numbers and odds of explication have any meaning in a universe of infinite potential and indefinite complexity.

infinite potential is just something from the abstract world, which has no meaning in the real world.

E = Mc^2 is a potential.  Are you telling me that equation has no meaning in the real (physical) world? laie_14.gif

God is a potential. Are you telling me God is more meaningful in the real (physical) world?..pop.gif

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Posted: 01 May 2013 10:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 270 ]
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Adonai888 - 01 May 2013 10:12 AM
George - 01 May 2013 09:09 AM
Adonai888 - 01 May 2013 08:59 AM
George - 01 May 2013 08:57 AM

Think of the many species of bacteria in your guts to help you digest food, which in turn is also advantageous for the bacteria as they have a place to eat and procreate. You both win.

and how would one know of the other , and that depend from it, would be a advantage ?

I am having some difficulties understanding you here.

They don’t initially “know” of each other. Most mutation (the ones that code for protein) are actually bad for us, but some mutations turn out to be advantageous as they can “discover” (unintentionally, of course) new resources to help us survive and procreate.

let us remember, what the problem is, that you have to solve :

Remove the orchid from the scene and the bees won’t mate and if they don’t mate, the flowers do not get pollinated and produce seed pods.  Remove the agouti from the scene and the opened seed pods do not get buried and germinate into new trees, thus greatly reducing the number of new trees to replace the older ones.

you have a classical irreducibility problem, which you cannot solve with a gradual evolution step, since each one needs the other since the beginning.


Well, remove men and women won’t be able to procreate. The thing is, though, that at one point “women” didn’t need men to have babies. I obviously put quotation marks around women because at the time when “they” used to reproduce asexually “they” were not even mammals. But I hope you get the idea. The orchid and bees need each other now, but “they” didn’t before. They evolved to depend on each other, just like we evolved to reproduce through sex.

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