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will freethinkers accept god if they find evidence?
Posted: 03 May 2013 04:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 331 ]
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First I would ask him, as some comedian once suggested, why do I keep bitting the inside of my cheeks. Next question would be probably about his divine plan of giving kids cancer.

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Posted: 03 May 2013 04:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 332 ]
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Adonai888 - 03 May 2013 02:57 AM

lets say, God would prove his existence to you unequivocally, and it would be the God of the bible. What would you do ? Continue living as if he does not exist, or start worship him, seek him, and start to live with him, and follow him ?

Why do you change the subject?
I just said to you that all the citations boil down to the ‘God of the gaps’ argument. I expected a reaction on that.

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Posted: 03 May 2013 04:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 333 ]
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Oh, btw, this is not the first time you are posting all these citations on these forums: here and here. Nobody was impressed then, nobody is impressed now. Why are you doing all this? Do you seriously think you can convince one of us? Or do you just want to “sho th’m, those stup’d atheists”?

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Posted: 03 May 2013 04:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 334 ]
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Adonai888 - 03 May 2013 02:57 AM,
lets say, God would prove his existence to you unequivocally, and it would be the God of the bible. What would you do ? Continue living as if he does not exist, or start worship him, seek him, and start to live with him, and follow him ?

If you keep citing odds for the appearance and evolution of complex organisms, but after 14 million years of having directed the evolution of organisms, what are the odds of a supernatural intelligence making his presence known to us directly and irrefutably. Id’ say it would have to be pretty spectacular and not an image of Christ (including halo) in an Idaho Russet Potato.

In fact it would be interesting to form an alliance with (curious) theists to devise a test which would offer persuasive scientific and philosophical evidence for the existence of god. Opposite viewpoints devising a single neutral test from which they might receive supporting or negating evidence for a god.

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Posted: 03 May 2013 06:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 335 ]
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Adonai888 - 03 May 2013 02:57 AM

lets say, God would prove his existence to you unequivocally, and it would be the God of the bible. What would you do ? Continue living as if he does not exist, or start worship him, seek him, and start to live with him, and follow him ?

Now instead of presenting evidence Adonai is deflecting the discussion.

This has been an interesting study of the tactics theists will take to protect their cherished beliefs. Adonai has exhibited logical fallacies, disingenuous reasoning and discredited ideas, but no evidence because he has no evidence.

Nice chatting with you Adonai, but I’m moving on to more interesting topics.

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Posted: 03 May 2013 06:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 336 ]
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Oh, what the hell, in for a penny: as your refutation of empirical scientific evidence originates from your holy book (as the only alternative to factual evidence) how do you answer these quotes admittedly cherry picked from the bible, e.g.:

Genesis 1: 1-2 biblical creation conflicts with the evolutionary evidence e.g. The earth before the stars etc. And all in six days. Evidence? Man was created from dust and women from a rib? Proof? Likewise, Seth, Enos, Cainon, Methuselah, and Jared all lived over 800 years? Really? Verse 6:4 states that there were giants. Proof? Also, verse 7:20 states that the flood covered everything, including Mt. Everett? Proof?

Josuah 10:12-13 god made the sun stand still. how?

Job 38: 4-6 the Earth doesn’t move because it’s on foundations? Also, 39: 9-10 where are the unicorns? I like unicorns!

Isiah 5:26, the Earth is flat? 11:8 where is the evidence of the cockatrice ( a snake hatched from a cock’s egg)? Also, 13: 21-22, evidence of a fiery dragon please.

Ezekiel 7: 2-6 the flat World was ending in his time. Maybe god made it round then.

Matthew 2: 16, king Herod kills all the boys from age 2 up around Bethlehem. Where is the forensic evidence? The written evidence outside of the bible? How about this one, 4: 2 Jesus fasted for 40 days. Really? Or 27: 45, 51-53, three hours of darkness and violent earthquakes at the crucifixion but once again no evidence outside of the bible. The Romans were curiously silent on this mega event. We’re they shocked into silence?


And just for kicks and giggles the bats again: Leviticus 11: 13 and 19 bats are birds, and all four legged birds are bad!

To top it off, this from 1 Timothy 6:20 so now we know why you are a creationist: the verse states that believers must reject science if it contradicts with the bible. These are but a few of the gems of prescientific thought you claim to trump modern scientific inquiry. Once again, you may believe anything you wish, that unicorns and dragons existed, that the Earth was made by a being in six days then created people out of mud and women from a male body part then later sent himself down here via impregnating a human only to grow up and have himself killed to prove some nebulous point etc. etc. my point is that no matter how you spin it your contentions are based solely on this cobbled together book. Site all of the pseudoscientific references you wish, the very foundation of your arguments is based on a collection of folk stories and early iron age philosophy and that’s why in the long run it doesn’t hold up to scientific scrutiny.


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Posted: 03 May 2013 06:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 337 ]
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Adonai888 - 02 May 2013 01:30 PM

Your personal attacks are a admittance that you have no good arguments to represent your position. And at the same time, you have no good arguments as well to rebate mine. You are openly admitting you lost the debate.

We’ve given you arguments.  Philosophical naturalism has proven itself time and time again for its ability to explain how the natural world works.  Without it, there would be no science, which is really funny because you yourself keep using “science” as your arguments!  What would we replace it with, philosophical supernaturalism, the idea that everything happens at the whim of some supernatural being who can change the laws of nature whenever he feels like it?  You know deep in your heart that would never work.

You in turn have based your entire argument on the fact that you personally don’t understand the concept of natural selection, therefore you chose to ignore all the evidence for it.  In your place, you offer NO evidence whatsoever that your God ever created anything.  So basically your belief is no more valid than you think ours is.  In that case, why do you still hold to your belief?

What would you do in case, God would reveal himself in a way, that there could exist no doubt anymore about his existence, and it would be the God of the bible.

I’ll let you know if it ever happens.  I don’t see it as very likely, if your arguments are any guide.  smile

[ Edited: 03 May 2013 07:02 AM by Advocatus ]
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Posted: 03 May 2013 08:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 338 ]
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GdB - 03 May 2013 04:19 AM

I just said to you that all the citations boil down to the ‘God of the gaps’ argument. I expected a reaction on that.

there are enormous gaps in the fossil record, which take the explanatory power of the evolution theory away. That justifies my skepticism about if the theory is true. And there are , as shown, enough non theist scientists, which doubt about the theory as well.
i do however infere design in nature based on what we do know, which is, that chance, or physical necessity, do not create a universe out of nothing. Neither do they fine tune the universe to create advanced , intelligent life. Neither can chance create complex, codified, specified information. Neither can the gap between dead matter, and conscient beings, be closed through chance. A intelligent designer however explains the phenomenas in the most apropriate, sense making way. We see intelligent beings create written information all the time. So do we see people making complex things all the time. So its justified to believe, that God made the natural world, which is far more complex, advanced , and intelligently designed, than all what men does.

[ Edited: 03 May 2013 08:26 AM by Adonai888 ]
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Posted: 03 May 2013 08:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 339 ]
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OK Adonai. So you see that your citations are all ‘God of the gaps’ arguments. Yours are too. You are just saying ‘because I cannot imagine the gap being filled, God did it’. And then we are not talking about the fact that many of the gaps are not so big as you think. Obviously you only read texts of other creationists.

You still have not given one piece of positive evidence. Where is the empirical proof, the direct observation of God, publicly available for all to verify? Just think: because you cannot imagine how organisms that seem designed cannot come into existence without designer, is still a negative argument. And not a valid argument in this case at all, because nature is just much more beautiful and complex than you can imagine, than you can even understand. You are using your incapability to understand as an argument for God. And then btw, you are still far away of proving that this God has something to do with that carpenter’s son…

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Posted: 03 May 2013 08:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 340 ]
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GdB - 03 May 2013 08:44 AM

OK Adonai. So you see that your citations are all ‘God of the gaps’ arguments. Yours are too. You are just saying ‘because I cannot imagine the gap being filled, God did it’. And then we are not talking about the fact that many of the gaps are not so big as you think. Obviously you only read texts of other creationists.

You still have not given one piece of positive evidence. Where is the empirical proof, the direct observation of God, publicly available for all to verify? Just think: because you cannot imagine how organisms that seem designed cannot come into existence without designer, is still a negative argument. And not a valid argument in this case at all, because nature is just much more beautiful and complex than you can imagine, than you can even understand. You are using your incapability to understand as an argument for God. And then btw, you are still far away of proving that this God has something to do with that carpenter’s son…

Well, it seems you just ignore the reasons and arguments i have given.

I will stick just to one :

We do know only intelligent beings, namely humans, do produce complex, specifided, codified information, as a book, a computer code, a partiture etc.
The information stored in DNA ,which is similar to the information in a book, computer code etc, must therefore be also result of a conscious, intelligent mind.
That is empirical proof, that God created DNA,and the stored information there.

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Posted: 03 May 2013 09:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 341 ]
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Adonai888 - 03 May 2013 08:52 AM

We do know only intelligent beings, namely humans, do produce complex, specifided, codified information, as a book, a computer code, a partiture etc.
The information stored in DNA ,which is similar to the information in a book, computer code etc, must therefore be also result of a conscious, intelligent mind.
That is empirical proof, that God created DNA,and the stored information there.

You keep using the word “empirical.” I do not think that word means what you think it means. Look it up.

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Posted: 03 May 2013 09:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 342 ]
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lets say, God would prove his existence to you unequivocally, and it would be the God of the bible. What would you do ? Continue living as if he does not exist, or start worship him, seek him, and start to live with him, and follow him ?
Adonnai-

Yes.  I would believe. If that scenario took place, then I would believe.
But then as that scenario progressed, I don’t know how I would worship him.  Especially after he proved himself to me.
I can see wanting to worship an unknown, un-revealed god.  That would reinforce my faith.
But if god proved his existence to me…I don’t know what I would do.  If he told me I had to worship him, I would ask him what exactly does worship entail?
And more importantly why…why would you want me, this lowly mortal to worship you?  What does that do for you god?  Is that how you feed?
Do you get your energy from all of us worshiping you?
Of course if he revealed himself to me I suppose he would alter my mind, and I would be a different person.
I would run around proselytizing and prostrating myself.  Most people would think I was whacko and they would put me in a hospital.
Whereas initially I wouldn’t know what worship was…now god has changed the mechanics of my brain and turned me into a worship robot.

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Posted: 03 May 2013 10:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 343 ]
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Adonai88 - Please respond to my thread “Which Religion Is Best?”.  It’s easy for you to go round and round with non-theists.  I’d be curious to see what you say again other theists, a more apples to apples debate if you will.

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Posted: 03 May 2013 11:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 344 ]
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CuthbertJ - 03 May 2013 10:02 AM

Adonai88 - Please respond to my thread “Which Religion Is Best?”.

I am not a religious person, neither do i care about religion. The christian faith is about a personal relationship with God.

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Posted: 03 May 2013 11:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 345 ]
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DarronS - 03 May 2013 09:48 AM
Adonai888 - 03 May 2013 08:52 AM

We do know only intelligent beings, namely humans, do produce complex, specifided, codified information, as a book, a computer code, a partiture etc.
The information stored in DNA ,which is similar to the information in a book, computer code etc, must therefore be also result of a conscious, intelligent mind.
That is empirical proof, that God created DNA,and the stored information there.

You keep using the word “empirical.” I do not think that word means what you think it means. Look it up.

Interesting that you care about what is not essential of what i wrote.

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