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will freethinkers accept god if they find evidence?
Posted: 03 May 2013 11:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 346 ]
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Adonai888 - 03 May 2013 11:15 AM
CuthbertJ - 03 May 2013 10:02 AM

Adonai88 - Please respond to my thread “Which Religion Is Best?”.

I am not a religious person, neither do i care about religion. The christian faith is about a personal relationship with God.

Why? Because you have a pastor instead of a priest? They have brainwashed you well.

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Posted: 03 May 2013 01:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 347 ]
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Adonai888 - 03 May 2013 11:16 AM
DarronS - 03 May 2013 09:48 AM
Adonai888 - 03 May 2013 08:52 AM

We do know only intelligent beings, namely humans, do produce complex, specifided, codified information, as a book, a computer code, a partiture etc.
The information stored in DNA ,which is similar to the information in a book, computer code etc, must therefore be also result of a conscious, intelligent mind.
That is empirical proof, that God created DNA,and the stored information there.

You keep using the word “empirical.” I do not think that word means what you think it means. Look it up.

Interesting that you care about what is not essential of what i wrote.

The word “empirical” is the essential part of what you wrote. We have asked for empirical evidence and you provided flawed logic, then called it empirical evidence. FYI, empirical evidence is measurable. The definition of empirical makes it the opposite of a logical argument, which is what you tried and failed to present.

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Posted: 03 May 2013 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 348 ]
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DarronS - 03 May 2013 01:14 PM

We have asked for empirical evidence .

Your demand is quit boring. You know well that nobody has conclusive proofs . My example is however not a god of the gaps argument, but based on what we do know. It stands as a good justification for theism, as long as atheists are unable to present just one, i repeat, just ONE example of codified information, as stored in DNA, that has not a mind as origin.

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Posted: 03 May 2013 02:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 349 ]
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Adonai888 - 03 May 2013 08:24 AM
GdB - 03 May 2013 04:19 AM

I just said to you that all the citations boil down to the ‘God of the gaps’ argument. I expected a reaction on that.

there are enormous gaps in the fossil record, which take the explanatory power of the evolution theory away.

Yes, like the landmasses drifting apart from each other and what was once land teeming with life disappear under the oceans, never to be seen again.

justifies my skepticism about if the theory is true. And there are , as shown, enough non theist scientists, which doubt about the theory as well.

That’s the problem, the theists screaming about how science confirms theism by looking at the gaps, have the least amount of knowledge of the science to begin with. I do admire the Vatican admitting the BB as the Beginning in Chaos and the consequent natural Ordering and Evolution of the Universe.

i do however infer design in nature based on what we do know, which is, that chance, or physical necessity, do not create a universe out of nothing. Neither do they fine tune the universe to create advanced , intelligent life. Neither can chance create complex, codified, specified information. Neither can the gap between dead matter, and conscient beings, be closed through chance.

Wow, a theist refuting almost everything science has discovered about the properties of Potential and Creative abilities of natural evolutionary functions and progressions at large.

An intelligent designer however explains the phenomena in the most apropriate, sense making way. We see intelligent beings create written information all the time.

So where did god leave his written “information” of his intelligent designs? The bible??

The evolutionary record of out Natural history is written in our DNA, a chemical blueprint of our bodies and of every living thing that came before. There probably exist cosmic constants which leave a trail or blueprints for electromagnetic functions, like certain fundamental configurations, i.e. E=Mc^2

So do we see people making complex things all the time. So its justified to believe, that God made the natural world, which is far more complex, advanced , and intelligently designed, than all what men does.

Strange that all the great complex systems god designed took so long to form that god forgot why he made them in the first place. Perhaps that why the earth is the only known planet with life. All the other systems were trial and error, but the exact conditions were not present so god moved on to the next and the next until he hit on Earth and to his great surprise, all the conditions for life were perfect.
And here is where God, the cosmic gardener, planted the garden of Eden and created all the fishes and beasts and fowl and creepy crawlies. But it wasn’t enough. God needed to create something godlike, something he could really be proud of.

So God created the most complex of all systems and created man.  Fortunately God was able to use a lot of his earlier designs and incorporate them into the new model. God the Developer evolved along with his triumphs in the Creative sciences. And because it was finely tuned, God saw that everything was working and that it was good and then God rested. The universe stopped changing from that point on, except for losing energy, entropy, which God is unable to stop because of the laws of Nature (oops, God’s laws).

Sorry Adonai, I was just babbling, somewhat like you have been.  “Natura Artis Magistra” (nature is the teacher of art and science).

Now you and theism seek to become the teacher of cosmology by citing a book “written by god” through his human vessels, three thousand years ago? Did we not go through this once in history?  Why have you not learned from history?

[ Edited: 03 May 2013 03:28 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 03 May 2013 07:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 350 ]
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Adonai888 - 01 May 2013 03:38 AM

that would be the case, if i’d propose a caused God.

Are you proposing an uncaused deity? That is even more problematic as causality is primal in the universe. If your proposed uncaused deity is not in the universe, then where is it and the compelling evidence that it is uncaused?

A eternal universe would already be in a state of heath death. 2 law of thermodynamics.

Not necessarily so.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe

Current status:

There is dispute over whether or not an expanding universe can approach maximal entropy; it has been proposed that in an expanding universe, the value of maximum entropy increases faster than the universe gains entropy, causing the universe to move progressively further away from heat death.

Also, consider this:

There is much reasonable doubt about even the approximate value of the current entropy of the universe. One expert on the entropy of systems that are not in thermodynamic equilibrium writes: “It is rather presumptuous to speak of the entropy of a universe about which we still understand so little, and we wonder how one might define thermodynamic entropy for a universe and its major constituents that have never been in equilibrium in their entire existence.”

A recent analysis of entropy states that “The entropy of a general gravitational field is still not known,” and that “gravitational entropy is difficult to quantify.” The analysis considers several possible assumptions that would be needed for estimates, and suggests that the visible universe has more entropy than previously thought. This is because the analysis concludes that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor.

And from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe

Cosmology with dark energy:

Infinite expansion does not determine the spatial curvature of the universe. It can be open (with negative spatial curvature), flat, or closed (positive spatial curvature), although if it is closed, sufficient dark energy must be present to counteract the gravitational attraction of matter and other forces tending to contract the universe. Open and flat universes will expand forever even in the absence of dark energy.

Observations of the cosmic background radiation by the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe suggest that the universe is spatially flat and has a significant amount of dark energy.[9] In this case, the universe should continue to expand at an accelerating rate. The acceleration of the universe’s expansion has also been confirmed by observations of distant supernovae.[8] If, as in the concordance model of physical cosmology (Lambda-cold dark matter or ΛCDM), the dark energy is in the form of a cosmological constant, the expansion will eventually become exponential, with the size of the universe doubling at a constant rate.

If the theory of inflation is true, the universe went through an episode dominated by a different form of dark energy in the first moments of the big bang; but inflation ended, indicating an equation of state much more complicated than those assumed so far for present-day dark energy. It is possible that the dark energy equation of state could change again resulting in an event that would have consequences which are extremely difficult to parametrize or predict.

So, whether an eternal infinitely expanding universe is in or will be in a state of heat death is unknown and/or unpredictable.

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Posted: 04 May 2013 03:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 351 ]
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Write4U - 03 May 2013 02:28 PM

Wow, a theist refuting almost everything science has discovered about the properties of Potential and Creative abilities of natural evolutionary functions and progressions at large.

If you can show me a example, just ONE example, of a ” potential “, ( whatever you mean with that ) producing codified information, you have a case. So far, you have not.

So where did god leave his written “information” of his intelligent designs? The bible??

Do you not read my posts ?

Richard Dawkins at his book The Blind Watchmaker:

“Every single one of more than a trillion cells in the body contains about a thousand times as much precisely-coded digital information as my entire computer.

The evolutionary record of out Natural history is written in our DNA

What you need to explain, is how the information for the first life got stored in dna in the first place.

, a chemical blueprint of our bodies and of every living thing that came before. There probably exist cosmic constants which leave a trail or blueprints for electromagnetic functions, like certain fundamental configurations, i.e. E=Mc^2

cosmis constants, or mathematical formulas, do not produce codified information, as the blueprint stored in dna, to make life.


Strange that all the great complex systems god designed took so long to form

Do you think 6 days is a long time ?

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Posted: 04 May 2013 03:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 352 ]
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kkwan - 03 May 2013 07:59 PM
Adonai888 - 01 May 2013 03:38 AM

that would be the case, if i’d propose a caused God.

Are you proposing an uncaused deity? That is even more problematic as causality is primal in the universe. If your proposed uncaused deity is not in the universe, then where is it and the compelling evidence that it is uncaused?

A eternal universe would already be in a state of heath death. 2 law of thermodynamics.

Not necessarily so.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe

Current status:

There is dispute over whether or not an expanding universe can approach maximal entropy; it has been proposed that in an expanding universe, the value of maximum entropy increases faster than the universe gains entropy, causing the universe to move progressively further away from heat death.

Also, consider this:

There is much reasonable doubt about even the approximate value of the current entropy of the universe. One expert on the entropy of systems that are not in thermodynamic equilibrium writes: “It is rather presumptuous to speak of the entropy of a universe about which we still understand so little, and we wonder how one might define thermodynamic entropy for a universe and its major constituents that have never been in equilibrium in their entire existence.”

A recent analysis of entropy states that “The entropy of a general gravitational field is still not known,” and that “gravitational entropy is difficult to quantify.” The analysis considers several possible assumptions that would be needed for estimates, and suggests that the visible universe has more entropy than previously thought. This is because the analysis concludes that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor.

And from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe

Cosmology with dark energy:

Infinite expansion does not determine the spatial curvature of the universe. It can be open (with negative spatial curvature), flat, or closed (positive spatial curvature), although if it is closed, sufficient dark energy must be present to counteract the gravitational attraction of matter and other forces tending to contract the universe. Open and flat universes will expand forever even in the absence of dark energy.

Observations of the cosmic background radiation by the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe suggest that the universe is spatially flat and has a significant amount of dark energy.[9] In this case, the universe should continue to expand at an accelerating rate. The acceleration of the universe’s expansion has also been confirmed by observations of distant supernovae.[8] If, as in the concordance model of physical cosmology (Lambda-cold dark matter or ΛCDM), the dark energy is in the form of a cosmological constant, the expansion will eventually become exponential, with the size of the universe doubling at a constant rate.

If the theory of inflation is true, the universe went through an episode dominated by a different form of dark energy in the first moments of the big bang; but inflation ended, indicating an equation of state much more complicated than those assumed so far for present-day dark energy. It is possible that the dark energy equation of state could change again resulting in an event that would have consequences which are extremely difficult to parametrize or predict.

So, whether an eternal infinitely expanding universe is in or will be in a state of heat death is unknown and/or unpredictable.

It can be theoretisized if the universe will expand foreve ( if it really expands is another issue of dispute ). but it cannot have a eternal past, since otherwise we would have never reached ” now “. through successive addition or parts, you can run towards infinity, but will never reach it.

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Posted: 04 May 2013 04:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 353 ]
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Adonai888

Write4U 03 May 2013 02:28 PM

Wow, a theist refuting almost everything science has discovered about the properties of Potential and Creative abilities of natural evolutionary functions and progressions at large.

If you can show me a example, just ONE example, of a ” potential “, ( whatever you mean with that ) producing codified information, you have a case. So far, you have not.

I don’t need to produce anything. You are the one required to present an example of the existence of god, just one. So far, you have not.

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Posted: 04 May 2013 04:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 354 ]
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Write4U - 04 May 2013 04:34 AM

Adonai888

Write4U 03 May 2013 02:28 PM

Wow, a theist refuting almost everything science has discovered about the properties of Potential and Creative abilities of natural evolutionary functions and progressions at large.

If you can show me a example, just ONE example, of a ” potential “, ( whatever you mean with that ) producing codified information, you have a case. So far, you have not.

I don’t need to produce anything. You are the one required to present an example of the existence of god, just one. So far, you have not.

Are you not willing to show me, that your answers have better explanation power than mine ?

There is no absolute proof for Gods existence. You know that. Why ask then ?!!

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Posted: 04 May 2013 07:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 355 ]
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Adonai888 - 03 May 2013 01:39 PM

...as long as atheists are unable to ...

A ‘God of the gaps’ argument again.

Adonai888 - 03 May 2013 01:39 PM

...present just one, i repeat, just ONE example of codified information, as stored in DNA, that has not a mind as origin.

Well, DNA is the example. That we do not know exactly how DNA came into existence, does not mean that there is no natural explanation.

And further I only see you have no idea what DarronS is saying. Empirical proof would be burning bushes with voices, God telling us supernatural things he will do, and then does them. That are things we can observe, but your lack of understanding of evolution, and science not having complete explanations for everything yet is definitely no empirical proof for God.

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Posted: 04 May 2013 09:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 356 ]
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Well, DNA is the example. That we do not know exactly how DNA came into existence, does not mean that there is no natural explanation.

And further I only see you have no idea what DarronS is saying. Empirical proof would be burning bushes with voices, God telling us supernatural things he will do, and then does them. That are things we can observe, but your lack of understanding of evolution, and science not having complete explanations for everything yet is definitely no empirical proof for God.


Yet we know that DNA actually exists. How about a full scientific explanation for talking snakes, four legged birds, unicorns, giants, a flat Earth, dust people, flaming dragons, snakes from male fowl eggs, a big boat full of every creature including dinosaurs, bat birds, humans made from body parts, zombies, people who mysteriously levitate into the air, a human turned into salt, and extrordinary life spans nearing one thousand years to name a few.


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Posted: 04 May 2013 09:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 357 ]
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GdB - 04 May 2013 07:39 AM

Well, DNA is the example. That we do not know exactly how DNA came into existence, does not mean that there is no natural explanation.

Well the natural explanation would be chance. there is no physical necessity for the special arrangement of the nucleotides to form a information rich chain.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t287-information-evidence-for-a-creator

It has been calculated that it would be statistically impossible to randomly type even the first 100 characters in Shakespeare’s “Hamlet”. If the monkeys typed only in lower case, including the 27 spaces in the first 100 characters, the chances are 27100 (ie. one chance in 10143).

That shows that natural explanations, aka chance is a bad explanation.

but your lack of understanding of evolution…............

well, rather than acuse me of not understanding evolution, i would suggest, you start to present good reasons, why you believe evolution is true. And specially explain how you believe the animals evolved, which i have mentioned . That would make your case
much more credible, rather than acuse me.

, and science not having complete explanations for everything yet is definitely no empirical proof for God.

So , how does that differe from your God of the gaps argument ? We don’t know exactly how the biodiversity on earth came to be, so therefore the evolution theory is true ?

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Posted: 04 May 2013 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 358 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 04 May 2013 09:02 AM

Yet we know that DNA actually exists.

So what ?

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Posted: 04 May 2013 11:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 359 ]
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Adonai888 - 04 May 2013 03:12 AM
Write4U - 03 May 2013 02:28 PM

Wow, a theist refuting almost everything science has discovered about the properties of Potential and Creative abilities of natural evolutionary functions and progressions at large.

If you can show me a example, just ONE example, of a ” potential “, ( whatever you mean with that ) producing codified information, you have a case. So far, you have not.

So where did god leave his written “information” of his intelligent designs? The bible??

Do you not read my posts ?

Richard Dawkins at his book The Blind Watchmaker:

“Every single one of more than a trillion cells in the body contains about a thousand times as much precisely-coded digital information as my entire computer.

The evolutionary record of out Natural history is written in our DNA

What you need to explain, is how the information for the first life got stored in dna in the first place.

, a chemical blueprint of our bodies and of every living thing that came before. There probably exist cosmic constants which leave a trail or blueprints for electromagnetic functions, like certain fundamental configurations, i.e. E=Mc^2

cosmis constants, or mathematical formulas, do not produce codified information, as the blueprint stored in dna, to make life.


Strange that all the great complex systems god designed took so long to form

Do you think 6 days is a long time ?


Adonai wrote:

What you need to explain, is how the information for the first life got stored in dna in the first place.

Lois, No, what you need to explain, scientifically, is how god came into being in the first place (or show empirical evidence that he is eternal). When you do that we’ll explain, scientifically, about DNA (with empirical evidence). Or shall we just use your method of making a grand proclamation about it’s origins, with no evidence, declare that we have given evidence and that we can’t possibly be wrong?

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Posted: 04 May 2013 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 360 ]
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Lois - 04 May 2013 11:36 AM

Lois, No, what you need to explain, scientifically, is how god came into being in the first place (or show empirical evidence that he is eternal)?

Such questions bore me.

i can play the same game :

what you need to explain, scientifically, is how the universe came into being naturally in the first place (or show empirical evidence that the universe is eternal )

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