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will freethinkers accept god if they find evidence?
Posted: 05 May 2013 06:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 376 ]
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DarronS - 05 May 2013 06:34 AM

There you go moving the goalposts again. We were discussing evolution. Try to stay on topic.

No. The information in DNA makes part of the quest how it was stored there, and how life came to be on earth.

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Posted: 05 May 2013 06:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 377 ]
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Well then at least answer my question. What role does chance play in natural selection?

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Posted: 05 May 2013 08:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 378 ]
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DarronS - 05 May 2013 05:55 AM
Adonai888 - 05 May 2013 05:33 AM
GdB - 05 May 2013 02:40 AM

But if you would have a process that selects best results after small steps of changes, you would have the ‘Hamlet’ in a shorter time than you can imagine. .

i didnt know, that chance has the amazing hability to ” select the best results “.

You just proved GdB’s point.

Do you know what point DarronS means?

Did I somewhere say that ‘chance has the amazing hability to “select the best results”’?

Adonai888 - 05 May 2013 06:32 AM

Not only has this phenomenon never been reproduced by any scientist in any laboratory on earth, but a reasonable mechanism by which such a phenomenon might even occur has never been proposed

Another ‘God of the gaps’ again. Because a natural explanation has not been found yet, and cannot be imagined by you, it was God. You still do not have any positive empirical prove.

Answer DarronS’ question:

DarronS - 05 May 2013 06:11 AM

What role does chance play in natural selection?

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Posted: 05 May 2013 08:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 379 ]
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DarronS - 05 May 2013 06:43 AM

Well then at least answer my question. What role does chance play in natural selection?

none.

What role does natural selection play when it comes to the quest of how life began ?

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Posted: 05 May 2013 08:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 380 ]
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GdB - 05 May 2013 08:05 AM

Another ‘God of the gaps’ again.

No. because irreducible complex systems cannot arise through evolution, intelligent design explains the phenomenas we see best.

you should have read the full text through the link i provided :


In the very first cell (assuming that there was a first cell) what came first - the DNA or the protein? Of course, the protein that reads the DNA is itself coded for by the DNA. So, the protein could not be there first since its code or order is contained in the DNA that it decodes. Proteins would have to decode themselves before they could exist. So obviously, without the protein there first, the DNA would never be read and the protein would never be made. Likewise, the DNA could not have been there first since DNA is made and maintained by the proteins of the cell. Some popular theories about abiogenesis suggest that RNA probably evolved first and then DNA. But this doesn’t remove the problem. RNA still has to be decoded by very specific proteins that are themselves coded for by the information contained in the RNA. Obviously both DNA and/or RNA and the fully formed decoding protein system would have to be present at the same time in order for the system as a whole to work. There simply is no stepwise function-based selection process since natural selection isn’t even capable of working at this point in time.
Just like the chicken and the egg paradox, it seems like the function of the most simple living cell is dependent upon all its parts being there in the proper order simultaneously. Some have referred to such systems as “irreducibly complex” in that if any one part is removed, the higher “emergent” function of the collective system vanishes. This apparent irreducibility of the living cell is found in the fact that DNA makes the proteins that make the DNA. Without either one of them, the other cannot be made or maintained. Since these molecules are the very basics of all life, it seems rather difficult to imagine a more primitive life form to evolve from. No one has been able to adequately propose what such a life form would have looked like or how it would have functioned. Certainly no such life form or pre-life form has been discovered. Even viruses and the like are dependent upon the existence of pre-established living cells to carry out their replication. They simply do not replicate by themselves.

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Posted: 05 May 2013 09:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 381 ]
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Doesn’t it occur to you, that the whole cell might not have arisen as a ‘one time stroke’? That there were life forms that do not exist anymore, maybe not even based on RNA or DNA? And of which possibly no fossils are left, because the structures are too small?

Here is a nice comparison:

views.gif

Evolution starts with the ‘replicating polymers’.

Come back when you have read this, and showed why it cannot be true.

And btw, who designed the intelligent designer? How did he arise? With a big bang? Or was he designed by some super intelligent designer? Are you relly giving an explanation, when you say it was intelligent design?

See also abiogenesis.

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Posted: 05 May 2013 09:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 382 ]
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GdB - 05 May 2013 09:31 AM

Doesn’t it occur to you, that the whole cell might not have arisen as a ‘one time stroke’? That there were life forms that do not exist anymore, maybe not even based on RNA or DNA? And of which possibly no fossils are left, because the structures are too small?

Here is a nice comparison:

views.gif

Evolution starts with the ‘replicating polymers’.

Come back when you have read this, and showed why it cannot be true.

And btw, who designed the intelligent designer? How did he arise? With a big bang? Or was he designed by some super intelligent designer? Are you relly giving an explanation, when you say it was intelligent design?

See also abiogenesis.

well, the problem has been described well by Popper :

What makes the origin of life and of the genetic code a disturbing riddle is this: the genetic code is without any biological function unless it is translated; that is, unless it leads to the synthesis of the proteins whose structure is laid down by the code. But … the machinery by which the cell (at least the non-primitive cell, which is the only one we know) translates the code consists of at least fifty macromolecular components which are themselves coded in the DNA. Thus the code can not be translated except by using certain products of its translation. This constitutes a baffling circle; a really vicious circle, it seems, for any attempt to form a model or theory of the genesis of the genetic code.
Thus we may be faced with the possibility that the origin of life (like the origin of physics) becomes an impenetrable barrier to science, and a residue to all attempts to reduce biology to chemistry and physics.

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Posted: 05 May 2013 10:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 383 ]
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Adonai888 - 05 May 2013 08:39 AM
DarronS - 05 May 2013 06:43 AM

Well then at least answer my question. What role does chance play in natural selection?

none.

Thank you for answering this at last. Now I know you have no idea how natural selection works.

What role does natural selection play when it comes to the quest of how life began ?

None. Natural selection came about after life began. If you don’t understand the difference you will never understand how evolution works. Raising the origin of life question when discussing evolution is a red herring.

Talk Origins has a good explanation here. Scroll down to “The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance.”

There is probably no other statement which is a better indication that the arguer doesn’t understand evolution. Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors (and chance ensures that such beneficial mutations will be inevitable) are retained, and less successful variations are weeded out. When the environment changes, or when organisms move to a different environment, different variations are selected, leading eventually to different species. Harmful mutations usually die out quickly, so they don’t interfere with the process of beneficial mutations accumulating.

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Posted: 05 May 2013 10:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 384 ]
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Well, Popper is just wrong. Such mechanisms can be built up by other, simpler mechanisms. What is a chicken-egg process now, must not always have been.

To give an example of computer science: Unix is written in the computer language C. However, to compile a C program so that it can run, you must install the compile-program on a computer, and for that you need an operating system like Unix. So now you would say that this is impossible: Unix is written in C, and C programs runs under Unix. They are completely interdependent. Of course, we know that it originally began with people that cumbersome wrote the first C-compiler in machine code. More primitive programs that did the job.

Same with abiogenesis: simple mechanisms evolved to more complex ones, in which everything is interdependent. That is logically perfectly possible, and so it is a scientific question to find out how it happened, instead of yelling ‘oh I cannot imagine how this could have arisen, so it is God!’.

Think about it: such a bridge could never have ‘arisen’ because if you build it up from the sides, those sides will crash before they reached the middle, the left side cannot exist without the right side, and the other way round:

250px-Pont_du_Diable_2.JPG

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Posted: 05 May 2013 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 385 ]
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Adonai888 - 05 May 2013 08:42 AM

No. because irreducible complex systems cannot arise through evolution, intelligent design explains the phenomenas we see best.

What do you mean by that?

Take the turtle. What are you saying happened, if it isn’t a result of an evolutionary process then how did turtles get here?

Did the first turtle just appear one day out of the blue at the will of God? Or did God put some physical process in place which produced the turtle?

Stephen

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Posted: 05 May 2013 11:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 386 ]
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StephenLawrence - 05 May 2013 11:32 AM
Adonai888 - 05 May 2013 08:42 AM

No. because irreducible complex systems cannot arise through evolution, intelligent design explains the phenomenas we see best.

What do you mean by that?

Take the turtle. What are you saying happened, if it isn’t a result of an evolutionary process then how did turtles get here?

Did the first turtle just appear one day out of the blue at the will of God? Or did God put some physical process in place which produced the turtle?

Stephen

Right.  And I would love for someone to give me an example of an irreducible complex system.

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Posted: 05 May 2013 11:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 387 ]
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So please Adonnai88…give me one example of an irreducible complex system.

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Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

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Posted: 05 May 2013 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 388 ]
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VYAZMA - 05 May 2013 11:53 AM

So please Adonnai88…give me one example of an irreducible complex system.

He used the flagellum and the eye as examples earlier. It shows me he is just cutting and pasting without any real understanding of biology…..nor does he wish to understand. Intellectual dishonesty.

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Posted: 05 May 2013 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 389 ]
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Adonai888 - 05 May 2013 08:39 AM
DarronS - 05 May 2013 06:43 AM

Well then at least answer my question. What role does chance play in natural selection?

none.

What role does natural selection play when it comes to the quest of how life began ?

This is odd. This very exchange is an example of failed evolution.

I’ll give you an example of chance play in natural selection.

Abiogenesis - a reasonable answer to explain how live arise on earth ?

If you were truly a student of Evolution, you would have learned to spell (communicate) the word “life” correctly as well as using the proper tense in your use of verbs.  If you were a student of English, your evolutionary progress in that language is inadequate, and as a linguist YOU FAIL (natural selection). Sorry, you do not get to become a theoretic scientist until you have passed the Natural test for linguists. Once you learn to read write and spell correctly, you can start discussing “evolution”.

I ran across this todbit “by chance” but If I were a teacher, you’d fail as an English linguist and therefore also as Evolutionist. When you get the sentence right, you will get the chance to advance into the more complex considerations of “evolutionary possibilities of life arising (emerging) on earth”

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Posted: 05 May 2013 12:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 390 ]
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asanta - 05 May 2013 12:31 PM
VYAZMA - 05 May 2013 11:53 AM

So please Adonnai88…give me one example of an irreducible complex system.

He used the flagellum and the eye as examples earlier. It shows me he is just cutting and pasting without any real understanding of biology…..nor does he wish to understand. Intellectual dishonesty.

He does display an amazing hability to write ignorant things.  LOL

The term “intellectually dishonest” has come to my mind often while participating in this thread, especially when Adonai links to a site that sounds like something he would write.

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