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will freethinkers accept god if they find evidence?
Posted: 06 April 2013 08:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]
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Arthur King - 04 April 2013 11:05 AM
garythehuman - 04 April 2013 08:15 AM

Arthur K:

“But for day-in: Day-out lifelong bracing there is probably nothing so effective as religion;  it makes powerful and talented people more humble and patient; it makes average people rise among themselves, it provides sturdy support for many people desperately trying to stay away from drink or drugs or crime.  People who would otherwise be self- absorbed or shallow or crude or simply quitters are often enabled by their religion, given a perspective on life that helps them make the hard decisions that we would all be proud to make.”  D. Dennett Breaking the Spell Pg. 55

A.K.  Religon is a wide spread human invention that has been very useful in the creation and maintainence of human socities, it has both its positive and negative histories, until you understand this, you are merey an athiest fundamentalist, no better than a relgious fuindamentalist trying to impose their own “vision” on the rest of us.  The task of we humanists is not to destroy religion but to replace it with a social construct, not based upon the myths of the past but on the rational, scientific methods of today.

My findings is that the whole success of christianity is due to PTSD, brain damage caused by terror.  First one must be made to believe that he will receive unimaginable torture forever, the brain is destroyed to the point that they cannot run their own lives, and the priests, preachers, and their lies then take over.

IMO your finds are extemely biased and not based upon any rational or scientific investigation.  Yes religion can be misused by elites but it can also enpower the common people.  i.e
. as observerd by Nathan Hatch in The Democratization of American Christianity:

“In at least three respects the popular religious movements of the early republic articulated a profoundly democratic spirit.  First, they denied the age-old distinction that set the clergy apart as a separate order of men and they refused to defer to learned theologians and traditional orthodoxies.  . . . Second these movements empowered ordinary people by taking their deepest spiritual impulses at face value rather than subjecting them to the scrutiny of orthodox doctrine and frowns of respectable clergymen.  . . . (Third) Religious outsiders flushed with confidence about their prospects, had little sense of limitations.  . . . This upsurge of democratic hope, this passion for equality, led to a welter of diverse and competing forms, many of them structured in highly undemocratic ways.  . . .  Yet despite these authoritarian structures, the fundamental impetus of these movements was to make Christianity a liberating force; people were given the right to think and act for themselves rather than depending on an educated elite. “

Barbara Ehrenreich in “Dancing in the Streets”:
Of the “oriental” cults that spread through the ancient Greece and Roman worlds, Christianity is the only one to have survived in any form.  The reason for its success, at least in the first two centuries, probably lies in a quality that other cults never attained, and as far as we know, never even tried to attain:  namely, a sense of community that could outlast the emotional charge of the ceremony and rituals themselves.  . . . Christianity offered an ongoing network of support, material as well as social.                  Pg. 72

Francis Fukuyama in “The Origins of Political Order”
Historically . . . religion . . . it is a source of social cohesion that permits human beings to cooperate far more widely and securely than they would if they were the simple rational and self- interested agents posited by the economists.

There is much more to religion than “fire and brimstone” until you realize this you are going to regarded rightfully as nothing more than another “fundie’ with no regard for truth, reason or science.  Come on lose the blind spot and start making a serious contribution to how we can replace all the gods.

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All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

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Posted: 07 April 2013 12:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]
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free_of_belief - 30 September 2012 08:09 PM

will freethinkers accept god if they find evidence?

or will they discredit the evidence as fake?

  Once evidence is accepted, no belief is possible. Belief is possible only when there is no evidence to support a claim. Beliefbbecomes especially necessary when there is a great deal of evidence to refute the claim. There will always be some people who refuse to accept even irrefutable evidence, but eventually more and more people come around, just as they did about the sun not revolving around a spherical earth.  It took thousands of years, however.  Belief is like that.

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Posted: 15 April 2013 10:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]
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garythehuman - 06 April 2013 08:48 AM
Arthur King - 04 April 2013 11:05 AM
garythehuman - 04 April 2013 08:15 AM

Arthur K:

“But for day-in: Day-out lifelong bracing there is probably nothing so effective as religion;  it makes powerful and talented people more humble and patient; it makes average people rise among themselves, it provides sturdy support for many people desperately trying to stay away from drink or drugs or crime.  People who would otherwise be self- absorbed or shallow or crude or simply quitters are often enabled by their religion, given a perspective on life that helps them make the hard decisions that we would all be proud to make.”  D. Dennett Breaking the Spell Pg. 55

A.K.  Religon is a wide spread human invention that has been very useful in the creation and maintainence of human socities, it has both its positive and negative histories, until you understand this, you are merey an athiest fundamentalist, no better than a relgious fuindamentalist trying to impose their own “vision” on the rest of us.  The task of we humanists is not to destroy religion but to replace it with a social construct, not based upon the myths of the past but on the rational, scientific methods of today.

My findings is that the whole success of christianity is due to PTSD, brain damage caused by terror.  First one must be made to believe that he will receive unimaginable torture forever, the brain is destroyed to the point that they cannot run their own lives, and the priests, preachers, and their lies then take over.


IMO your finds are extemely biased and not based upon any rational or scientific investigation.  Yes religion can be misused by elites but it can also enpower the common people.  i.e
. as observerd by Nathan Hatch in The Democratization of American Christianity:

“In at least three respects the popular religious movements of the early republic articulated a profoundly democratic spirit.  First, they denied the age-old distinction that set the clergy apart as a separate order of men and they refused to defer to learned theologians and traditional orthodoxies.  . . . Second these movements empowered ordinary people by taking their deepest spiritual impulses at face value rather than subjecting them to the scrutiny of orthodox doctrine and frowns of respectable clergymen.  . . . (Third) Religious outsiders flushed with confidence about their prospects, had little sense of limitations.  . . . This upsurge of democratic hope, this passion for equality, led to a welter of diverse and competing forms, many of them structured in highly undemocratic ways.  . . .  Yet despite these authoritarian structures, the fundamental impetus of these movements was to make Christianity a liberating force; people were given the right to think and act for themselves rather than depending on an educated elite. “

Barbara Ehrenreich in “Dancing in the Streets”:
Of the “oriental” cults that spread through the ancient Greece and Roman worlds, Christianity is the only one to have survived in any form.  The reason for its success, at least in the first two centuries, probably lies in a quality that other cults never attained, and as far as we know, never even tried to attain:  namely, a sense of community that could outlast the emotional charge of the ceremony and rituals themselves.  . . . Christianity offered an ongoing network of support, material as well as social.                  Pg. 72

Francis Fukuyama in “The Origins of Political Order”
Historically . . . religion . . . it is a source of social cohesion that permits human beings to cooperate far more widely and securely than they would if they were the simple rational and self- interested agents posited by the economists.

There is much more to religion than “fire and brimstone” until you realize this you are going to regarded rightfully as nothing more than another “fundie’ with no regard for truth, reason or science.  Come on lose the blind spot and start making a serious contribution to how we can replace all the gods.

Religion has been used by despots to create and hold slaves.  The communities it has ‘influenced’ has been the communities of slaves.  The ‘calming effect’ is a byproduct of it’s creating brain damaging PTSD, a product of abuse and terror.  PTSD is probably the most important factor in the success of christendom in creating, managing, and perpetuating human slavery for the greedy elitists who created it.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 04:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]
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jump_in_the_pit - 01 October 2012 01:55 PM

What sort of evidence could be considered proof of a god?

The codified information stored in DNA maibe ?
or the fact that the universe had most probably a beginning, and therefore a cause above the natural universe ?
or the finely tuned universe ?
or life?
or human consciousness ?
or sex ?


just a few. But the major one : the total lack of explanatory power of philosphical naturalism for all above mentioned facts.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 06:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]
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just a few. But the major one : the total lack of explanatory power of philosphical naturalism for all above mentioned facts.

Aside from the fact that this is just plain wrong, it’s also the logical fallacy of the argument from ignorance.

There are a lot of things that I personally cannot explain, but that doesn’t mean that because I can’t do so that the proposition of divine intervention or action is the correct one. At best, you get there only by circular reasoning which is still another logical fallacy.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 07:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 24 April 2013 06:01 PM

just a few. But the major one : the total lack of explanatory power of philosphical naturalism for all above mentioned facts.

Aside from the fact that this is just plain wrong, it’s also the logical fallacy of the argument from ignorance.

There are a lot of things that I personally cannot explain, but that doesn’t mean that because I can’t do so that the proposition of divine intervention or action is the correct one. At best, you get there only by circular reasoning which is still another logical fallacy.

For me, its the contrary. Where philosophical naturalism fails, divine intervention is perfectly logical, and fits the evidence. My understanding is not based on what we do not know, and therefore a powerful designer and creator, but because we do know, that the universe most probably had a cause, and natural things began to exist within our know universe, the cause had to be supra natural. Because the universe , and its physical constants, are finely tuned to a razors edge, not only to make the universe possible, but specially life on earth, and fine tuner is to me the best possible answer. Chance does not tune over 120 physical paramenters and adjust them exactly to make life possible. Neither so does physical necessity. Where science fails an completely lacks to be able to explain how abiogenesis could have possibly happened , divine intervention and creation explains the irreducible complexity in the cell, and the codified information stored in the cell. Only intelligent being produce codified information. Dead matter cannot traverse the gulf, and produce consciousness,as the good Einstein said. The evolution theory has completely failed to present credible evidence to explain the manyfold diversity of life on earth. Rather that having more taxa and different species today, we have less. The graduality of evolution in the fossil record is a wellknown myth. It does not exist. The fossils tell a other story, than the ET wants to make to believe us. Animals appear, completely formed and fully functional and complex, and disappear in the same way. No graduality has been discovered. The ET is in essence a failed hypotheses. Creationism on the other hand explains perfectly the biodiversity, and its complexity, and irreducible complexity. God made it all.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 07:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]
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Adonai888 - 24 April 2013 07:34 PM

God made it all.

Define god.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 07:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]
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DarronS - 24 April 2013 07:35 PM
Adonai888 - 24 April 2013 07:34 PM

God made it all.

Define god.

God is the supreme being of the universe. God is a unbodied mind, He is righteous and just, love, good, free from sin, he is perfect in his character and person, he is righteous in all His attitudes and actions, he is eternal, without a beginning, and without a end, he is omniscient, omnipresent, limitless in authority, immutable, he is the truth. Moreover, God is self-existent, nonspatial, nonmaterial, unimaginably powerful, and personal.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 07:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]
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Adonai888 - 24 April 2013 07:40 PM
DarronS - 24 April 2013 07:35 PM
Adonai888 - 24 April 2013 07:34 PM

God made it all.

Define god.

God is the supreme being of the universe. God is a unbodied mind, He is righteous and just, love, good, free from sin, he is perfect in his character and person, he is righteous in all His attitudes and actions, he is eternal, without a beginning, and without a end, he is omniscient, omnipresent, limitless in authority, immutable, he is the truth. Moreover, God is self-existent, nonspatial, nonmaterial, unimaginably powerful, and personal.

Sounds pretty ambiguous. If god is perfect why do children die from cancer?

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Posted: 24 April 2013 07:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]
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DarronS - 24 April 2013 07:41 PM
Adonai888 - 24 April 2013 07:40 PM
DarronS - 24 April 2013 07:35 PM
Adonai888 - 24 April 2013 07:34 PM

God made it all.

Define god.

God is the supreme being of the universe. God is a unbodied mind, He is righteous and just, love, good, free from sin, he is perfect in his character and person, he is righteous in all His attitudes and actions, he is eternal, without a beginning, and without a end, he is omniscient, omnipresent, limitless in authority, immutable, he is the truth. Moreover, God is self-existent, nonspatial, nonmaterial, unimaginably powerful, and personal.

Sounds pretty ambiguous. If god is perfect why do children die from cancer?

Because humans have sinned, death came into the world. Cancer, therefore, is the result of human free-will. The only way that God could have created a world without cancer is to have restricted human free-will.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 07:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]
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Adonai888 - 24 April 2013 07:46 PM

Because humans have sinned, death came into the world. Cancer, therefore, is the result of human free-will. The only way that God could have created a world without cancer is to have restricted human free-will.

Can you imagine living in a world where there is no death. That would be a good description of living hell. You couldn’t eat the animals, the animals couldn’t hunt and eat the other animals, the world would rapidly run out of food, potable water and any other resources. We would be standing a mile deep in people on every land mass in the world, even if we were talking about (ahem) 6000 years. The situation would be untenable. A good description of a hellwink

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Posted: 24 April 2013 07:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]
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asanta - 24 April 2013 07:52 PM
Adonai888 - 24 April 2013 07:46 PM

Because humans have sinned, death came into the world. Cancer, therefore, is the result of human free-will. The only way that God could have created a world without cancer is to have restricted human free-will.

Can you imagine living in a world where there is no death. That would be a good description of living hell. You couldn’t eat the animals, the animals couldn’t hunt and eat the other animals, the world would rapidly run out of food, potable water and any other resources. We would be standing a mile deep in people on every land mass in the world, even if we were talking about (ahem) 6000 years. The situation would be untenable. A good description of a hellwink

Once the earth was full of people , in a perfect world, God would have had plenty of possibilities to not make the earth overpopulated. One possibility would have been to stop people to be able to procreate. God would have had a plan for that scenario, which would have been very good.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 08:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]
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Adonai888 - 24 April 2013 07:46 PM

Because humans have sinned, death came into the world. Cancer, therefore, is the result of human free-will. The only way that God could have created a world without cancer is to have restricted human free-will.

Hmmm…

God created Adam and Eve without the knowledge of good and evil, then punished not only Adam and Eve but all their progeny because A&E made a bad decision. Sounds like god is the guilty party here, not humanity.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 08:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]
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DarronS - 24 April 2013 08:05 PM
Adonai888 - 24 April 2013 07:46 PM

Because humans have sinned, death came into the world. Cancer, therefore, is the result of human free-will. The only way that God could have created a world without cancer is to have restricted human free-will.

Hmmm…

God created Adam and Eve without the knowledge of good and evil, then punished not only Adam and Eve but all their progeny because A&E made a bad decision. Sounds like god is the guilty party here, not humanity.

The answer is simple : we are without excuse since we sin too. So God does not punish you or me, because of what Adam and Eve did, but because of your, of mine bad decision. I am punished because of my sins, you because of yours. But the bible has a escape out of this. Jesus came to die for the sins of all humanity. He came to die for my, and your sins. Who acccepts his sacrifice, is receiving Gods pardon.

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Posted: 24 April 2013 08:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 105 ]
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Adonai888 - 24 April 2013 07:59 PM

Once the earth was full of people , in a perfect world, God would have had plenty of possibilities to not make the earth overpopulated. One possibility would have been to stop people to be able to procreate. God would have had a plan for that scenario, which would have been very good.

Aww, now you’re just making stuff up!  tongue laugh

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