FredW - 27 November 2012 03:31 AM

dansmith62 - 26 November 2012 08:24 AM

There are two types of religions.
One holding the view that religions can and should evolve

and the other holding the view that they can’t or shouldn’t evolve.
The latter is what we typically call fundamentalist religions.
Most of them are indeed dangerous. The question is what we can do so
that people reject to be followers of fundamentalist religions.
Offering atheism as the only valid alternative does limit our options.

I would get curious on this claim.
There are two types of religions.

One holding the view that religions can and should evolve

Would that derail the thread too much if I ask about some example
of such religion?

I’ve been atheist my whole life and are by the atheist definition 100%
atheist now but I feel very religious so if I could find a religion that behave
like you say “One holding the view that religions can and should evolve “
that would be very nice to know and read about. Unless it is a post-modern
version of relativism. ? Or a new age version of supernatural woo whatever.

Maybe we refer to Reconstructionist Paganism? I guess I have to write you a PM?

There are plenty of examples. Reform Judaism versus Haredi Judaism. Liberal Christianity versus fundamentalist Christianity. Reform Islam (as advocated by Nasr Abu Zayd and Irshad Manji) versus mainstream Islam.

Fred W.

Politically you can refer to religion as an oppressive tool.

Not necessarily, without the black church the Civil Rights Movement within the US in the 50s-70s would not have occurred.  In the mid-1800s most abolitionists were religious, as well as their opponents.  Literacy & publishing wouldn’t have spread as they did without the emphasis the early Protestants put on everyone reading the Bible for themselves. Free public education originated in the Sunday Schools the Puritans started to teach people to read the Bible.  Religious charities still help the poor when others won’t.

But you can look at it from social group dynamics and describe
hierarchy and authority and norms from tradition and so on.

Certainly you can. Religion is a social organizing tool, nothing more nothing less.  At times it has been highly beneficial to the societies it exists in and at time very detrimental, depending on how us humans use it.  The theology and stories that all religions have come from common experience of a particular group and form a cultural reference to hold these groups together for good or evil

I would like to include that Atheism if “practiced” is a modern form of religion. The majority of atheists follow the belief that we evolved from apes. This is a theroy that has never been proven. Actually, based on dna itself, science has shown that do to the lack of any evidence that links the species together through a logical timeline, it remains just a theroy. Thus it is the “faith” of the atheist that keeps the theroy alive. And just like any other religion, one that belives in something will always find ways in proving its truth, without looking at the bigger picture.

I always like the comparisons of Jesus to that of Darwin. No different at all. Both made some pretty big claims. I now even see Darwin bummper stickers like the Jesus stickers….....both are just as crazy.

Then look at the financial side of the evaluation. Religions have always looked for ways to spread its word through new churchs, advertisments and preachers etc…... Now look at the many atheist groups starting up ie, church of Darwin, cfi, the atheist alliance, european humanist federation, or any humist organization; they all collect funds for it survival, have saleries and advertise no differently that christian groups, or that of any corporate company would. 2weeks prior i am walking downtown and i see a bus pass by with a ad that states ” keep christ in christmas”, lol the bus two cars behind states “you dont need god to love”. Lol its called spread the word of your faith!

Sedularism is a religion…....down to the last nickel!

Two responses:

1. read some books, preferably basic science, anatomy and physiology to start.

2. brush up on your English a bit.

P.S. an atheist is someone who has no belief in the supernatural and needs no “faith” to sustain his/her contention.

Cap’t Jack

I would like to include that Atheism if “practiced” is a modern form of religion.

No it’s not.

We’ve had people come in here before trying to peddle this sort of nonsense so let’s get something straight: Atheism is a lack of belief.

Period.

There is nothing more to it then that.

As to evolution, the short version is that you are absolutely wrong on every single count. Evolution deals with one thing and one thing ONLY, and that is how life has changed since it began. It does not address the question of wheather or not any god or gods even exist and doesn’t need to.

If you want to understand what evolution really is from somebody who actually knows what he’s talking about, go to http://www.talkorigins.org/

Oh…and quit projecting. The “You’re The Same As Us” arguement was wrong and lame from everybody else who’s tried it and just as wrong and lame coming from you.

the right of reason - 30 December 2012 11:05 AM

I would like to include that Atheism if “practiced” is a modern form of religion. The majority of atheists follow the belief that we evolved from apes. This is a theroy that has never been proven. Actually, based on dna itself, science has shown that do to the lack of any evidence that links the species together through a logical timeline, it remains just a theroy. Thus it is the “faith” of the atheist that keeps the theroy alive. And just like any other religion, one that belives in something will always find ways in proving its truth, without looking at the bigger picture.

I always like the comparisons of Jesus to that of Darwin. No different at all. Both made some pretty big claims. I now even see Darwin bummper stickers like the Jesus stickers….....both are just as crazy.

Then look at the financial side of the evaluation. Religions have always looked for ways to spread its word through new churchs, advertisments and preachers etc…... Now look at the many atheist groups starting up ie, church of Darwin, cfi, the atheist alliance, european humanist federation, or any humist organization; they all collect funds for it survival, have saleries and advertise no differently that christian groups, or that of any corporate company would. 2weeks prior i am walking downtown and i see a bus pass by with a ad that states ” keep christ in christmas”, lol the bus two cars behind states “you dont need god to love”. Lol its called spread the word of your faith!

Sedularism is a religion…....down to the last nickel!

Atheist organizations are similar in many ways to religious organizations (particularly the Baptists who have a saying 5families one Church seven families two Churches   The difference being religions are based on old customs and supernatural myths that mostly arose before the Age of Science, while atheism or at least secular humanism is based on current knowledge of the physical world and rational thought. 
Churches and most humanist organizations are both social constructs that serve the purpose of the individuals and groups belonging to them and using them.

the right of reason - 30 December 2012 11:05 AM

The majority of atheists follow the belief that we evolved from apes. This is a theroy that has never been proven.

Wrong. Anyone who believes we evolved from apes has little understanding of evolution. Acutally, we evolved from a common ancestor.

Actually, based on dna itself, science has shown that do to the lack of any evidence that links the species together through a logical timeline, it remains just a theroy. Thus it is the “faith” of the atheist that keeps the theroy alive. And just like any other religion, one that belives in something will always find ways in proving its truth, without looking at the bigger picture.

Wrong again. In science a ‘theory’ means it has been proved, and is then built upon and tweaked. DNA evidence is just the cherry on top of all of the other proofs of evolution. You really could use a basic biology class.

And the common ancestror was most likely some sort of rat.  (Which explains many things )

garythehuman - 01 January 2013 09:45 AM

And the common ancestror was most likely some sort of rat.  (Which explains many things )

....rat-like creature. Not a rat.

Thevillageatheist - 30 December 2012 01:24 PM

Two responses:

1. read some books, preferably basic science, anatomy and physiology to start.

2. brush up on your English a bit.

P.S. an atheist is someone who has no belief in the supernatural and needs no “faith” to sustain his/her contention.

Cap’t Jack

Funny response…..deserves an even funnier return

1. The fact that your denying your own “science”, and rational means of sceintific debate….only leads me to say, “open your mind a little for the other side(s) of science…....

2. Lol nice insult off the top…...i am on a tablet with clumsy fingers….and no time for correction…...i am here as part of a agnostic personal look into both side of faith “Secular” (yes its faith…and proven) and traditioanal religion. You have supported my findings that in general, Secular members are generally more rude and less accepting toward others, than say the general population that belives (that spelling was just for you) in a god and/or creator.

P.S. The second fact that you state a single schoolmaster can replace a hundred priests…....funny…you support that secularism is a modern day form of religion…....

Anyway thanks for the friendly secular “hello”. This agnostic will make sure to stay out of your way.  Cant say much for my spelling though…..

the right of reason - 02 January 2013 10:16 PM

Funny response…..deserves an even funnier return

1. The fact that your denying your own “science”, and rational means of sceintific debate….only leads me to say, “open your mind a little for the other side(s) of science…....

Look up Dunning-Kruger effect. Then go look in the mirror.

asanta - 02 January 2013 10:23 PM

the right of reason - 02 January 2013 10:16 PM

Funny response…..deserves an even funnier return

1. The fact that your denying your own “science”, and rational means of sceintific debate….only leads me to say, “open your mind a little for the other side(s) of science…....

Look up Dunning-Kruger effect. Then go look in the mirror.

Ahh..you did’t….tell me you did’t…...yep you used the dunn…....ahh…....

I was going to use that one on another insulting member here…...oh well….you bet me to it…..guess i should go out back….and work the hens up….need to make sum green stuff for college…...

Lol…..my intellect just can compete here….if only i used the dunn…on the second post that would have put me ahead…...i bow down to the great insulting seculars! No sense a discussion wit fellers much high edumacated dan me…....bet i go to church dan…..an pray for dis folks…....

Lol….you Have no idea son…...lol…....no need for me to go further into that.

Is there a “anti” Center for Iquiry site out there? Looking for a place to debate some solid “facts” with pepole that are not onesided toward secular or religion…....Iwould donate to that cause….not this neo-nazi site…....

With all the ads this site is running….i thought they would want another paying follower…....oh well.

the right of reason - 30 December 2012 11:05 AM

I would like to include that Atheism if “practiced” is a modern form of religion. The majority of atheists follow the belief that we evolved from apes. This is a theroy that has never been proven. Actually, based on dna itself, science has shown that do to the lack of any evidence that links the species together through a logical timeline, it remains just a theroy. Thus it is the “faith” of the atheist that keeps the theroy alive. And just like any other religion, one that belives in something will always find ways in proving its truth, without looking at the bigger picture.

I always like the comparisons of Jesus to that of Darwin. No different at all. Both made some pretty big claims. I now even see Darwin bummper stickers like the Jesus stickers….....both are just as crazy.

Then look at the financial side of the evaluation. Religions have always looked for ways to spread its word through new churchs, advertisments and preachers etc…... Now look at the many atheist groups starting up ie, church of Darwin, cfi, the atheist alliance, european humanist federation, or any humist organization; they all collect funds for it survival, have saleries and advertise no differently that christian groups, or that of any corporate company would. 2weeks prior i am walking downtown and i see a bus pass by with a ad that states ” keep christ in christmas”, lol the bus two cars behind states “you dont need god to love”. Lol its called spread the word of your faith!

Sedularism is a religion…....down to the last nickel!

Secular Humanism could be considered a quasi-religion, secularism itself is not.

Somebody has already corrected your comment about “humans evolving from apes”, so that’s done.  But, give some reasons why you think evolution is just a theory.

I would like to include that Atheism if “practiced” is a modern form of religion. The majority of atheists follow the belief that we evolved from apes. This is a theroy that has never been proven. Actually, based on dna itself, science has shown that do to the lack of any evidence that links the species together through a logical timeline, it remains just a theroy. Thus it is the “faith” of the atheist that keeps the theroy alive. And just like any other religion, one that belives in something will always find ways in proving its truth, without looking at the bigger picture

First of all, no one “practices” atheism. It’s simply a denial of the supernatural intervention of a “divine” being and therefore doesn’t fit the criteria of a religion, which is based on faith in a creed or dogma.

Secondly, atheists don’t preach any “belief” in evolution. The theory which you mistakenly label as an hypothesis has been proven to be factual since Darwin’s eventual publication of the “descent of Man” in 1871. It has stood the test of time and scientific inquiry for 142 years despite attempted creationist counter arguments. Homo Sapiens was NOT descended from apes but from the ancestor of all primates. We may be on the same tree but a different branch. BTW, please present proof that “science” has shown via DNA studies that human evolution has not been conclusively proven. And once again, science, unlike religion doesn’t rely on the unproven hence “faith”. And to what bigger picture are you referring?

I always like the comparisons of Jesus to that of Darwin. No different at all. Both made some pretty big claims. I now even see Darwin bummper stickers like the Jesus stickers….....both are just as crazy

Who compares jesus to Darwin? There’s a big difference if your meaning is literal. One was a semi-mythical character about whom a cult following developed and the other was a devoted scientist seeking the origins of the natural World. One lived in the Bronze/iron age while the other had the good fortune to have lived after the Age of Enlightenment. As to bumper stickers. that’s a personal decision based on free speech. I could care less what you advertise on your car.

Then look at the financial side of the evaluation. Religions have always looked for ways to spread its word through new churchs, advertisments and preachers etc…... Now look at the many atheist groups starting up ie, church of Darwin, cfi, the atheist alliance, european humanist federation, or any humist organization; they all collect funds for it survival, have saleries and advertise no differently that christian groups, or that of any corporate company would. 2weeks prior i am walking downtown and i see a bus pass by with a ad that states ” keep christ in christmas”, lol the bus two cars behind states “you dont need god to love”. Lol its called spread the word of your faith

the above mentioned groups (I’ve never heard of the Church of Darwin) were created to bring attention to the hold religion has on government and, education and the personal lives of individuals, also to educate the public about fear and superstitution. Additionally, it is to promote a secular society where all people, theist, agmnostic and atheist may solve problems based on empericism and not mindless religious dogma, e.g. I don’t care if you want to keep christ in xmas: do so as you wish but don’t compel me to do the same.

Funny response…..deserves an even funnier return

1. The fact that your denying your own “science”, and rational means of sceintific debate….only leads me to say, “open your mind a little for the other side(s) of science…....

2. Lol nice insult off the top…...i am on a tablet with clumsy fingers….and no time for correction…...i am here as part of a agnostic personal look into both side of faith “Secular” (yes its faith…and proven) and traditioanal religion. You have supported my findings that in general, Secular members are generally more rude and less accepting toward others, than say the general population that belives (that spelling was just for you) in a god and/or creator.

P.S. The second fact that you state a single schoolmaster can replace a hundred priests…....funny…you support that secularism is a modern day form of religion…....

Anyway thanks for the friendly secular “hello”. This agnostic will make sure to stay out of your way.  Cant say much for my spelling though…..

I wasn’t attempting to be funny in any way. Your post lacked any scientific debate, just anecdotal ramblings devoid of facts. Also, I’m certain that my fingers are fatter than yours and I’m typing on an Ipad. I suggest that you at least take the time to edit your posts. And it is you who have a closed mind here. Once again, I see no evidence of your contention that evolution hasn’t been proven or that atheism is a religion. BTW, we’re only rude when being attacked by a poster who can’t back his/her claims. Otherwise it’s just worthless spamming. And my signature from Thomas Paine should be self evident: teachers instruct students how to think while priests teach them WHAT to think. Hello then and don’t dodge the debate. Join in but this time bring some facts.

Cap’t Jack

Hello,

back again. The discussion became completely hijacked and sidetracked to what the original question was, i also became busy with courses and life. :D

The original question: What is religion? To that question, lots of people gave different definitions from books and encyclopedias.

But the problem with definitions is this:

A definition is not subject to any constraints - you can give whatever definition you like. So each person gives a definition according to his/her assumptions and pre-conceived notions. No one is under any compulsion to modify their definition. On the other hand, A theory about what the phenomenon of religion would have certain implications/consequences. Now we can then see how these implied consequences match up against the real world. If these implied consequences do not obtain in the world then the theory has to be modified or thrown out for an alternate theory. At present the discussion in the social sciences is about definitions (and hence stagnant) and there is no good theory of religion (except one).