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How does a Muslim assimilate into American Culture ?
Posted: 16 October 2012 11:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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roger that ...

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Posted: 17 October 2012 03:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Write4U - 16 October 2012 04:15 AM
Occam. - 15 October 2012 04:41 PM

Quoting gBob:

. . . .that the UN construct an International Law which punishes any individual or Nation that disrespects Islam, Muslims or Muhammed in any sense what-so-ever ?

Gee, if they want that done, how about broadening it to include disrespecting christianity, Judaism, etc., atheism, and agnosticism?  From what little I know of the Quran, it would seem to have to be banned and all copies destroyed because of recommendations to harm non-believers in Islam.  LOL
Occam

IMO, any country that does not practice the “seperation of church and state” and enforces religious laws which violate “personal rights” should be BANNED from participation in the UN altogether.

I tend to agree with this.

If we are going to have a working UN, the member nations should all be on the same page regarding personal rights.  Otherwise we will just argue with each other.

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Posted: 17 October 2012 03:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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A moderate Muslim can easily assimilate into American culture, but a Muslim fundamentalist will always at odds with the way of life here.

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Posted: 17 October 2012 05:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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According to Congressman Peter King’s March 2011 hearings on the radicalization of Islam in America, the only real testimony we have on it is from Sheikh Kabbani who was a Muslim leader during the Clinton Administration and he testified back in 1999 and 2000 before the State Department that he thought over 80 percent of the mosques in this country are controlled by radical Imams. King stated “Certainly from what I’ve seen and dealings I’ve had, that number seems accurate.”

The point being - it would appear the radical elements have the advantage in the “war of words” in bullying the “moderate” Muslims into submission, in that, their literal translations of the Qu’ran, Hadith and Shariah are supported by those documents and recruiting young Muslims for the radical element becomes commonplace.

This is exactly what I am pursuing by my question on this forum - are these “moderate” Muslims “reformers” who will produce a “new testament” for Islam Religious books or are they just bystanders who will not interfere ?

Christians and Jews have already gone through their reformation periods and the savage aspects of Islam will not be reformed unless and until such a reformation occurs from within - in my opinion

I sincerely hope we can get the participation of some clear thinking Muslims in this discussion, as I have other questions regarding our ability to assist

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Posted: 17 October 2012 05:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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gBob - 17 October 2012 05:22 AM

According to Congressman Peter King’s March 2011 hearings on the radicalization of Islam in America, the only real testimony we have on it is from Sheikh Kabbani who was a Muslim leader during the Clinton Administration and he testified back in 1999 and 2000 before the State Department that he thought over 80 percent of the mosques in this country are controlled by radical Imams. King stated “Certainly from what I’ve seen and dealings I’ve had, that number seems accurate.”

The point being - it would appear the radical elements have the advantage in the “war of words” in bullying the “moderate” Muslims into submission, in that, their literal translations of the Qu’ran, Hadith and Shariah are supported by those documents and recruiting young Muslims for the radical element becomes commonplace.

I doubt that radical Islam will have much of an influence in the US. The “seperation of church and state” is a far-sighted document and a fundamental tenet of all our laws.

This is exactly what I am pursuing by my question on this forum - are these “moderate” Muslims “reformers” who will produce a “new testament” for Islam Religious books or are they just bystanders who will not interfere ?

Christians and Jews have already gone through their reformation periods and the savage aspects of Islam will not be reformed unless and until such a reformation occurs from within - in my opinion

It is my sincere hope that “moderate muslims” will look at the US legal system in regard to religious freedom as fair and just (even if against scripture). But as you mentioned, some of these adjustments have already been made in the christian religions. For instance the pope agreeing with the scientific findings of universal evolution. This knowledge shoud not have any impact on their daily rituals, which are freely permitted by law in spite of the debunking of the originial account of Creation. No one is saying “You are proven wrong and therefore you cannot practice your religion”.

I sincerely hope we can get the participation of some clear thinking Muslims in this discussion, as I have other questions regarding our ability to assist

Yes, indeed, except for some hotheads, there have been excellent conversations and debate on these issues with serious anf thoughtful people of all stripes. Arabic and Persian cultures go way back and are rich in history, arts, and sciences. It is such a shame that this excellence source of information should be buried by distrust, fear, hatred, and most of all by some words written in a book thousands of years ago. If only we could find common ground on some of these issues. The world is better off with seculare laws than with dogmatic scriptural laws.

[ Edited: 17 October 2012 05:54 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 17 October 2012 06:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Sheikh Kabbani testified back in 1999 - 2000 that over 80 percent of the mosques in this country are controlled by radical Imams

and you say : I doubt that radical Islam will have much of an influence in the US. The “separation of church and state” is a far-sighted document and a fundamental tenet of all our laws.

statements are in obvious conflict, so please clarify what you mean ?

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Posted: 17 October 2012 10:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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I think that it is possible for Muslims who have a fundamentalist belief in Islam, to live peacefully and productively within our society.  The would not necessarily assimilate to the underlying precepts of our current society, but could take a long term view as to the ultimate goal of our society assimilating to Islam over multiple generations.

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Posted: 17 October 2012 11:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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TimB - 17 October 2012 10:40 AM

I think that it is possible for Muslims who have a fundamentalist belief in Islam, to live peacefully and productively within our society.  The would not necessarily assimilate to the underlying precepts of our current society, but could take a long term view as to the ultimate goal of our society assimilating to Islam over multiple generations.

interesting point of view Tim, transform our society from within over a long period of time, but of course we would need abandon the very foundation of America and the Constitution basis of our existance

follow the lead of the Fabian Socialists if I follow you correctly ?

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Posted: 17 October 2012 02:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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gBob - 17 October 2012 06:29 AM

Sheikh Kabbani testified back in 1999 - 2000 that over 80 percent of the mosques in this country are controlled by radical Imams

and you say : I doubt that radical Islam will have much of an influence in the US. The “separation of church and state” is a far-sighted document and a fundamental tenet of all our laws.

statements are in obvious conflict, so please clarify what you mean ?

The establishment clause in the US Constitution specifically forbids sharia or any other religious laws.

The Establishment Clause is the first of several pronouncements in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating,

from Wiki,

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.
Together with the Free Exercise Clause (”... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”), these two clauses make up what are called the “religion clauses” of the First Amendment.[1]
The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another. The first approach is called the “separation” or “no aid” interpretation, while the second approach is called the “non-preferential” or “accommodation” interpretation. The accommodation interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government’s entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.

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Posted: 17 October 2012 03:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Write4U - 17 October 2012 02:51 PM
gBob - 17 October 2012 06:29 AM

Sheikh Kabbani testified back in 1999 - 2000 that over 80 percent of the mosques in this country are controlled by radical Imams

and you say : I doubt that radical Islam will have much of an influence in the US. The “separation of church and state” is a far-sighted document and a fundamental tenet of all our laws.

statements are in obvious conflict, so please clarify what you mean ?

perhaps semantics Write4U, but my question had less to do with changing laws and more to do with outright terrorism in our streets, the death and destruction that comes with it

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Posted: 17 October 2012 03:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Point well taken, but then even here in the US we are not free from violence from a variety of reasons.  Unfortunately violence is a common expression of frutration and a disconnect from society and happens everywhere in one form or another for any reason. This is not a peculiar phenomenon. Humans are naturally an aggressive species. if our common ancestor had been of the same family as the Bonobo, we might be more peaceful, but alas, we are closer to the Common Chimp and are capable of the same violent actions.
But then again, it might well account for our success as a species. This stuff goes way back and is deeply imbedded in our genes.

[ Edited: 17 October 2012 03:58 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 17 October 2012 04:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Write4U - 17 October 2012 03:55 PM

Point well taken, but then even here in the US we are not free from violence from a variety of reasons.  Unfortunately violence is a common expression of frutration and a disconnect from society and happens everywhere in one form or another for any reason. This is not a peculiar phenomenon. Humans are naturally an aggressive species. if our common ancestor had been of the same family as the Bonobo, we might be more peaceful, but alas, we are closer to the Common Chimp and are capable of the same violent actions.
But then again, it might well account for our success as a species. This stuff goes way back and is deeply imbedded in our genes.

you make my case for me - if Muslims living in America collectively reform and assimilate into our governmental structures and religious freedoms, then the Allahu Ackbars and other terriorist centered activities will be reduced/dimished/eliminated in that segment of the population, which currently is the only segment that murders in the name of religion and supremacy - the lack of reform efforts is THE most important question I have for followers of Islam

[ Edited: 17 October 2012 04:30 PM by gBob ]
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Posted: 17 October 2012 05:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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I agree, it seems to be the main problem with dogma. The inability to integrate new knowledge and concepts into scripture.

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Posted: 18 October 2012 09:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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gBob - 17 October 2012 11:50 AM
TimB - 17 October 2012 10:40 AM

I think that it is possible for Muslims who have a fundamentalist belief in Islam, to live peacefully and productively within our society.  The would not necessarily assimilate to the underlying precepts of our current society, but could take a long term view as to the ultimate goal of our society assimilating to Islam over multiple generations.

interesting point of view Tim, transform our society from within over a long period of time, but of course we would need abandon the very foundation of America and the Constitution basis of our existance

follow the lead of the Fabian Socialists if I follow you correctly ?

I am not advocating the scenario that I suggested.  I am simply asserting it as a possibility.  Personally, I would view it as a travesty to abandon our constitutional and cultural ideals, but I won’t be around to see it.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 18 October 2012 09:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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TimB - 18 October 2012 09:10 AM

I am not advocating the scenario that I suggested.  I am simply asserting it as a possibility.  Personally, I would view it as a travesty to abandon our constitutional and cultural ideals, but I won’t be around to see it.

understood Tim, but of course, that would not be assimilating, it would be supremacy - correct ?

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