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When it comes to making stupid comments…Republicans can’t seem to help themselves.
Posted: 02 November 2012 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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George - 02 November 2012 12:15 PM

It’s not threatening at all, because it will never work. The only other option is eugenics, the “Hitler way.” The first one is a waste of time and resources, the second one is disgusting.

With your perspective, why bother to provide any kind of education for anyone?  Can a prospective driver learn to be a better driver? Or should we just wait till the bad ones die off, and hope that those who have survived will be the ones who are naturally skilled at driving, and will thus pass on their driving skills to future generations?

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Posted: 02 November 2012 01:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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TimB - 02 November 2012 01:11 PM
George - 02 November 2012 12:15 PM

It’s not threatening at all, because it will never work. The only other option is eugenics, the “Hitler way.” The first one is a waste of time and resources, the second one is disgusting.

With your perspective, why bother to provide any kind of education for anyone?  Can a prospective driver learn to be a better driver? Or should we just wait till the bad ones die off, and hope that those who have survived will be the ones who are naturally skilled at driving, and will thus pass on their driving skills to future generations?

Sounds like reductio ad absurdum to me. I never said that all of education was useless.

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Posted: 02 November 2012 03:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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There’s no myth to effective parenting; it does show results. I know it’s anecdotal but it can produce positive results and the reverse is also true. We’ve been down this road before George and I didn’t totally disagree with the concept of genetic behavior because I’ve witnessed it in kids who were adopted by caring parents using effective parenting. They turned out troubled in spite of their parents’ continued attempts to help them. but some of them became self motivated success stories. But all of the kids I had contact with whose parents were ineffective for many reasons too numerous to into here either dropped out if school or by poor performance barely graduated and found dead end jobs or had kids too soon and draw a public assistance check. Here’s a non anecdotal reference:

http://www.ciccparenting.org/PDF/What Is Effective Parenting Article (073007).pdf

 

Cap’tnJack

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Posted: 02 November 2012 03:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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Damned iPad!


http://www.nasponline.org/about_nasp/positionpapers/EffectiveParenting.pdf

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 02 November 2012 03:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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Sorry, Jack, but it would take a bit more that that to convince me. It would require evidence.

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Posted: 02 November 2012 04:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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mckenzievmd - 02 November 2012 01:04 PM

Really, is there any point in discussing this with you George? Any conversation that begins with a Hitler reference is not likely to involve a substantive, open-minded exchange of ideas. And sadly, the time when you seemed willing to listen to anything anyone else had to say on the subject of genes, environment, and behavior appears to be long past. :-(

You have to be kidding, McKenzie.  I’m quite surprised that you were unable to see George’s reference to Lysenko and Hitler as metaphors. 

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Posted: 02 November 2012 05:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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Sorry, Jack, but it would take a bit more that that to convince me. It would require evidence.

 

No problem George; I’ll find it for you.

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 02 November 2012 06:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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George - 02 November 2012 01:43 PM
TimB - 02 November 2012 01:11 PM
George - 02 November 2012 12:15 PM

It’s not threatening at all, because it will never work. The only other option is eugenics, the “Hitler way.” The first one is a waste of time and resources, the second one is disgusting.

With your perspective, why bother to provide any kind of education for anyone?  Can a prospective driver learn to be a better driver? Or should we just wait till the bad ones die off, and hope that those who have survived will be the ones who are naturally skilled at driving, and will thus pass on their driving skills to future generations?

Sounds like reductio ad absurdum to me. I never said that all of education was useless.

So are you asserting that there is no such thing as parenting skills?  Or that parenting skills can’t be learned?  Can we learn to be better teachers? Can we learn to be more knowledgeble, responsible and effective citizens?  How is it that education is useful in so many ways, but for some reason, is useless in the particular area of learning things that can make one a more effective parent?

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 02 November 2012 07:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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What I am saying, and what the science is saying, is that parents don’t influence how the kids will turn out. So all the talk about testing parents if they are sufficiently knowledgable to be parents or teaching them how to become better parents is nonsense.

BTW, we know what happens to “idiotic drivers.” They are not allowed to drive. Are you and Asanta suggesting we don’t allow “idiotic parents” to have children? I doubt that’s what you meant, so I don’t really get the analogy.

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Posted: 02 November 2012 10:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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Occam,

And I’m surprised you didn’t see that I did, in fact, understand his use of these figures as signifiers for particular views of the relationship between genes and behavior. I do, however, consider their use in this discussion silly since it implies that the perspectives represented by Lysenko’s and Hitler’s theories are the only options when considering the relationship between genes and behavior. This is a false dichotomy George frequently presents, and which I used to argue with him about until it became clear that we couldn’t find any common ground on the subject. So I still believe that trying to stuff the conversation that was going on into this particular pigeonhole by mentioning a historical figure regularly used as the archtype of evil was not likely to lead to a substantive and open-minded exchange of ideas. Don’t mistake my criticism of George’s choice for a failure to understand his intent.

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Posted: 02 November 2012 11:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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TimB - 02 November 2012 06:27 PM
George - 02 November 2012 01:43 PM
TimB - 02 November 2012 01:11 PM
George - 02 November 2012 12:15 PM

It’s not threatening at all, because it will never work. The only other option is eugenics, the “Hitler way.” The first one is a waste of time and resources, the second one is disgusting.

With your perspective, why bother to provide any kind of education for anyone?  Can a prospective driver learn to be a better driver? Or should we just wait till the bad ones die off, and hope that those who have survived will be the ones who are naturally skilled at driving, and will thus pass on their driving skills to future generations?

Sounds like reductio ad absurdum to me. I never said that all of education was useless.

So are you asserting that there is no such thing as parenting skills?  Or that parenting skills can’t be learned?  Can we learn to be better teachers? Can we learn to be more knowledgeble, responsible and effective citizens?  How is it that education is useful in so many ways, but for some reason, is useless in the particular area of learning things that can make one a more effective parent?

When we talk about parenting skills, we have to realize there are skills like: changing diapers, bathing a child, treating a sick child, teaching them to read,tell time, etc. -  these can all be learned by a new parent.

However, things like teaching a child to be honest, sense of fair play, empathy -  these cannot be taught.

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Posted: 03 November 2012 05:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3061231/


Here’s a peer reviewed article just for starters George. It does address the concept of nature and nurture in effective parenting and the outcome depending on environmental factors. It seems rpto favor nurture but does include biological aspects of behavior.

 

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 03 November 2012 05:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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However, things like teaching a child to be honest, sense of fair play, empathy -  these cannot be taught.

 

Yes they can Mike. And just the opposite is true. Ever seen the videos of family shoplifters? The parents distract the clerks while the kids steal the merchandise. Kids can be influenced to do just about anything that doesn’t cause them to harm themselves, lying, cheating and stealing not to mention bullying which has become rampant lately. I do admit that genes come into play as well as I responded to George, but not in every case. I’ve worked with local families for the past 36 years and have noticed similar traits in their children and now grandchildren and spot the same traits in the kids that their parents displayed when they were students. You could almost predict their behavior as some were carbon copies of their parents. And yes I was careful to treat each kid as an individual as an experiment to view their behavior with neutral stimuli. Their backgrounds were similar to those of their parents regardless of their racial distinction and most of our Arfican-American kids are from mixed families descended from former slaves who were sent here in 1853. I Don’t want to belabor the point here and I know it’s anecdotal but I’m convinced that environmental issues shouldn’t be thrown out completely.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 03 November 2012 05:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=208278

 


Here’s another one George from a JAMA affiliate. It deals with the long term effects of a mother’s depressive state on her children and how the child is effected. Once again genetic effects and environmental instability combines to create the child’s behavior. This deals tangentially with parenting.

 

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 03 November 2012 07:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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Jack,

I’ll have to get back to you on this. My weekends are crazy busy (busy doing effective parenting) and I only get a few minutes here and there to check the forum. I’ll respond when I am done shaping my kids’ behaviour to argue against such thing.  grin

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