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Is Atheism doomed to extinction?
Posted: 05 November 2012 09:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 136 ]
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Occam. - 05 November 2012 09:29 PM

Quoting TimB:

I think that the underlying compatibility with religious programming remains, such that, even if humans were to become primarily non-theists, theism woud very likely become predominate again, at some point.

  So, carrying my analogy forward, do you assume that the flat earth theory would very likely become predominant again?

Occam

I would argue that the Planck length limitation is our current flat earth notion

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Posted: 05 November 2012 09:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 137 ]
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Other than the Flat Earth notion having no evidentiary backing and having been discredited 2,500 years ago you have a good point; and if you wear the right kind of hat no one will notice.

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Posted: 05 November 2012 09:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 138 ]
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Occam. - 05 November 2012 11:16 AM

I agree with Darron.  And, TVA, although my parents didn’t have me go to church, they both believed in a christian god, so if theism/atheism were genetically determined, I would have been a theist by birth.  While I can understand (and even often agree with George’s views smile  ), we have to recognize that not every idea is genetically based.  Essentially everyone in the world believed the earth was flat and the center of the universe.  If we accepted the 100% genetic control, we’d have to say that we all still really believe that.  Our minds may all be genetically determined PC computers, but they can accept a variety of programs.  As such, the program of theism is phasing out and being replaced with non-theism.

Occam

Well, if George can’t explain The Onion can.

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Posted: 05 November 2012 11:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 139 ]
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sobpatrick - 05 November 2012 07:44 PM

Quick answer - we both go to where we were before we were born. 

Hey, that’s exactly what I think too! From nothing we came, to nothing we will return.

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Posted: 05 November 2012 11:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 140 ]
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sobpatrick, may I ask you something.
You can really help me out here.

You know these things way better than what I do.

Some Christians take God very seriously.
To them God is more real than physical reality.
And some of these believers see other Christians
as atheists due to those other Christians
have a Liberal or Progressive view a metaphoric God.

Would you say that Liberal Christians lose ground
and that churches that preach a real God gain ground?

If you belong to the believers that take God very seriously.
Why does God have to be more real than our physical reality?

My wild guess is that only a very real God can assure eternal life?

Is that something you can confirm?

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Posted: 06 November 2012 05:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 141 ]
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GdB - 05 November 2012 11:27 PM
sobpatrick - 05 November 2012 07:44 PM

Quick answer - we both go to where we were before we were born. 

Hey, that’s exactly what I think too! From nothing we came, to nothing we will return.

I don’t think I’d say nothing - beyond our perception sure.  Just as gravitons are beyond our perception. I might be mistaken but the “crazy” science I refer to suggests that somewhere in the space-time continuum/parallel universes, everything that will exist, does exist.  The information for everything is already there… Can someone confirm this hypothesis?

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Posted: 06 November 2012 07:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 142 ]
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FredW - 05 November 2012 11:38 PM

sobpatrick, may I ask you something.
You can really help me out here.

You know these things way better than what I do.

Some Christians take God very seriously.
To them God is more real than physical reality.
And some of these believers see other Christians
as atheists due to those other Christians
have a Liberal or Progressive view a metaphoric God.

Would you say that Liberal Christians lose ground
and that churches that preach a real God gain ground?

If you belong to the believers that take God very seriously.
Why does God have to be more real than our physical reality?

My wild guess is that only a very real God can assure eternal life?

Is that something you can confirm?

Firstly, I’m as much a theologian as I am a scientist - I absorb parts of both that interest me, but I’ll offer an opinion since you asked.  First, even if every person on earth believed in God you’d still have 7 billion different versions of God so I think you’re okay if your view of God differs from someone elses.  The very structure of Christianity makes it open to interpretation.  Even fundamentalists know the bible has gone through edits and the 4 gospels welcome different perspectives.  As far as eternal life goes - I don’t think anything of the afterlife will be comparable to our current existence.  I once hoped that I would be united with dead loved ones but then thought - that would mean there would need to be a physical aspect to the afterlife.  I’d see my dead grandma and then what for the next trillion years?  Eternal life as we know it would get pretty dull.  This doesn’t make me think there isn’t something after - just something very different.  As far as God being more real than our physical reality - sure I can accept that - the more science shows I watch the less sure I am of what is real to begin with.  As far as confirming anything - what good would faith be if anything could be confirmed?  Having said that I have had several personal experience that for me confirm that something greater is at work in my life.

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Posted: 06 November 2012 11:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 143 ]
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sobpatrick - 06 November 2012 05:32 AM

I don’t think I’d say nothing - beyond our perception sure.  Just as gravitons are beyond our perception. I might be mistaken but the “crazy” science I refer to suggests that somewhere in the space-time continuum/parallel universes, everything that will exist, does exist.  The information for everything is already there… Can someone confirm this hypothesis?

Just having a nice parallel that fits your feeling of meaning in the universe does not make it true. There is no empirical hint whatsoever that there is some pre/after existence. You must face this. There are much better explanations why your children seems so happy and forgiving, and they have to do with biology, specifically with evolution…

Don’t look for meaning in the (meta)physical world, you will not find it there.

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Posted: 07 November 2012 12:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 144 ]
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sobpatrick, thanks for caring to answer me.
The reason I asked is maybe personal.

I’ve met many believers that only accept a real God.
I’ve suggested to them that a metaphoric god would be okay.
Few seems to want such a god. The cool thing is that atheists
seems to also prefer a real God to lack belief in.
Why do they care about if gods is real or just subjective?

I mean why is it so important for many atheists that god is real?

Sure I am 100% atheist due to the definition being as it is but I trust
that God really do exists within the believers as a way to relate to reality.

To me God is more like Music or Sport or Art. Something one commit to by action.

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Posted: 07 November 2012 01:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 145 ]
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FredW - 07 November 2012 12:51 AM

sobpatrick, thanks for caring to answer me.
The reason I asked is maybe personal.

I’ve met many believers that only accept a real God.
I’ve suggested to them that a metaphoric god would be okay.
Few seems to want such a god. The cool thing is that atheists
seems to also prefer a real God to lack belief in.
Why do they care about if gods is real or just subjective?

I mean why is it so important for many atheists that god is real?

Sure I am 100% atheist due to the definition being as it is but I trust
that God really do exists within the believers as a way to relate to reality.

To me God is more like Music or Sport or Art. Something one commit to by action.

If one needs a god, or even just wants one, it seems to me that understanding that the god that you believe in is metaphorical is more intellectually honest than insisting that you have a “real” god, despite the lack of evidence.

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“Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb… We are bound to others, past and present… And by each crime and every kindness… We birth our future.”  Sonmi, 2144.

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Posted: 07 November 2012 06:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 146 ]
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GdB - 06 November 2012 11:20 PM
sobpatrick - 06 November 2012 05:32 AM

I don’t think I’d say nothing - beyond our perception sure.  Just as gravitons are beyond our perception. I might be mistaken but the “crazy” science I refer to suggests that somewhere in the space-time continuum/parallel universes, everything that will exist, does exist.  The information for everything is already there… Can someone confirm this hypothesis?

Just having a nice parallel that fits your feeling of meaning in the universe does not make it true. There is no empirical hint whatsoever that there is some pre/after existence. You must face this. There are much better explanations why your children seems so happy and forgiving, and they have to do with biology, specifically with evolution…

Don’t look for meaning in the (meta)physical world, you will not find it there.

I don’t think the scienctific world offers any answers either - every answer leads to another question.  Seems too much like a hampster wheel.

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Posted: 07 November 2012 09:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 147 ]
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sobpatrick - 07 November 2012 06:53 AM
GdB - 06 November 2012 11:20 PM

Don’t look for meaning in the (meta)physical world, you will not find it there.

I don’t think the scienctific world offers any answers either - every answer leads to another question.  Seems too much like a hampster wheel.

Exactly, but that is what I said: ‘Don’t look for meaning in the (meta)physical world’. It is a category mistake. In you posting here you seem to search for the physical possibility of eternal existence. You still want an answer from the hamster wheel called science?

And ‘every answer leads to another question’: yes of course! This is science, not religion! In religion one postulates an answer, when necessary with no empirical support at all, and that’s that. No further questions allowed. You want a final answer. To expect such a true answer exists is absurd, to think that science should deliver such an answer is even absurder.

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Posted: 07 November 2012 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 148 ]
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sobpatrick - 29 October 2012 10:46 PM

Is Atheism doomed to extinction?

Though it may be a fact that it is the fastest growing religion (referred to in the media - I would call it a belief system), most atheists I know have few or no children, while religious people are having them by the dozens.  Added to this is my personal belief that science is at a point where faith and belief are playing a much larger role.  300 years ago there were laws, 100 years ago they became theories, currently most of it is hypothesis with the future looking more and more like wide held beliefs and then faith.
Furthermore, I also see science facing what seems to be several impassable walls.

Forgive me if I’m oversimplifying here, but you seem to be saying two things:
1) Atheism is doomed because it depends upon science. and
2) Science is doomed because it’s becoming too confusing.

I think both are wrong.  If the “media” are calling atheism the “fastest growing religion”, they have it wrong (or you are just reading them wrong).  Sure more people are checking “none” when it comes to “religious preference”, but that doesn’t make them atheists.  Atheism is NOT a religion anyway or a belief system.

If science seems crazy to you, you’re probably just looking at the wrong youtubes.  smile  At some point in here you said you don’t have time to read books, you just let hundreds of PhDs “dumb it down” for you.  That’s your mistake.  “A little learning is a dangerous thing.”  Drink deeply, or don’t drink at all.  For example, anyone can see that you don’t known diddly about evolution.  No offense intended, but it’s true.  Learn a little more about it before you start coming up with wild theories.

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Posted: 07 November 2012 11:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 149 ]
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sobpatrick - 05 November 2012 09:30 PM

I find it interesting that once you have children it’s difficult to imagine a time when they didn’t exist.  Even if you look back to your childhood - the notion of “hey my kids didn’t exist anywhere.” is freaky.

Hold onto that thought!  Now extend that thought to your belief in some supernatural higher power.  Isn’t it likely that this is just a subjective feeling you have because you just can’t imagine it otherwise?

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Posted: 07 November 2012 03:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 150 ]
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advocatus - 07 November 2012 11:17 AM
sobpatrick - 29 October 2012 10:46 PM

Is Atheism doomed to extinction?

Though it may be a fact that it is the fastest growing religion (referred to in the media - I would call it a belief system), most atheists I know have few or no children, while religious people are having them by the dozens.  Added to this is my personal belief that science is at a point where faith and belief are playing a much larger role.  300 years ago there were laws, 100 years ago they became theories, currently most of it is hypothesis with the future looking more and more like wide held beliefs and then faith.
Furthermore, I also see science facing what seems to be several impassable walls.

Forgive me if I’m oversimplifying here, but you seem to be saying two things:
1) Atheism is doomed because it depends upon science. and
2) Science is doomed because it’s becoming too confusing.

I think both are wrong.  If the “media” are calling atheism the “fastest growing religion”, they have it wrong (or you are just reading them wrong).  Sure more people are checking “none” when it comes to “religious preference”, but that doesn’t make them atheists.  Atheism is NOT a religion anyway or a belief system.

If science seems crazy to you, you’re probably just looking at the wrong youtubes.  smile  At some point in here you said you don’t have time to read books, you just let hundreds of PhDs “dumb it down” for you.  That’s your mistake.  “A little learning is a dangerous thing.”  Drink deeply, or don’t drink at all.  For example, anyone can see that you don’t known diddly about evolution.  No offense intended, but it’s true.  Learn a little more about it before you start coming up with wild theories.

Yeah - I know as much as an arm-chair evolutionist - but my opionion is based on going to the root - not just amino acids - but electrons.  I ask the question “why are all electrons exactly the same?  Why should they be the same?” and then “why should anything have any properties? - and then “why should those properties allow for life?” 
I don’t think it’s that science is too confusing - it may be that the dumb-down stuff is just too ridiculous eg - for every possible action there is a reality where that action happened - maybe it’s for ratings that they come up with this stuff?
I’m pretty flexible on what I watch on youtube - do you suggest anything?

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