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Is Atheism doomed to extinction?
Posted: 30 October 2012 04:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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sobpatrick, I think your position in philosophic circles is known as the ‘new mysterianism’ (notice the new in it phrase as it underscores the fact that it’s a perrenial standpoint). The problem with such a position is that not only is it defeatist but also presumes to know the answers to questions before taking the pains to analyze them.
    Yes, science (and even philosophy) has increasingly been undertaken in a peacemeal fashion, and not in the wholistic and all-embracing manner of the idealist system-builders of yore who only sought to make reality correspond as closely as possible to their subconscious desires.

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Posted: 30 October 2012 04:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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CuthbertJ - 30 October 2012 01:21 PM
sobpatrick - 30 October 2012 10:36 AM
CuthbertJ - 30 October 2012 09:56 AM
sobpatrick - 30 October 2012 09:23 AM

...that will hurt your cause

There’s your basic problem. Religions have an underlying agenda of trying to convert everyone ELSE to their belief system. (Which is really the only way to stifle debate and dissent).  Science on the other hand promotes debate and dissent and trots merrily along without worrying about what others think. But religionists attributing a hidden agenda to science is really just a reflection of their own mindset.

No I think science will do just fine. It’s religion that will die a slow death, and actually is as we speak (over the course of generations).

I guess you can only speak for yourself as far as intentions of conversions go.  Personally I don’t want atheism to die (I know it wont) I think it takes all types to make a world and personally have a soft spot for people challenging religion.  But I don’t think science will do just fine.  There is nothing but dissention when it comes to the micro and macro.  No concensus whatsoever.  I’m sure you’ll arrive at your own conclusions but don’t you think science’s explaination of the extreme fine tuning of our universe (one to the power of 122 other unprovable universes)  is simply a joke?  And when it comes to the micro and macro of our universe answers like these are becoming more prevelant - you can’t deny this.  Religion die?  Science die? - neither will die but both are in trouble.  I don’t want to convert you I want you to challenge me, educate me and show me I’m wrong

Ya sorry buddy, you’re using words you don’t understand about a subject you don’t understand. My guess is you’re actually a conservative who thinks consensus is the hallmark of success. It’s not.  Just because the context of some areas of one particular branch of science is open to more than usual lack of consensus doesn’t mean the whole things falling apart. If we’re talking religion, yes, consensus is needed to keep the emperors new clothes from being seen. Not so in science.

Id be interested in knowing what subject it is that you think I don’t understand - more interested in seeing how you could explain it to me…

[ Edited: 30 October 2012 04:17 PM by sobpatrick ]
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Posted: 30 October 2012 05:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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sobpatrick - 29 October 2012 10:46 PM

Call me stupid

I can’t. I would get banned.

LOL!

Aah, you’re too rough George LOL

The original post was really all over the place I don’t even know where to start… You’d almost have to take it phrase by phrase. gulp

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Posted: 30 October 2012 05:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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>>Is Atheism doomed to extinction?<<

Nope.

>>Though it may be a fact that it is the fastest growing religion<<

Atheism is not a religion.

It would help if you knew what you were talking about. Don’t try and tell us that you do.

You don’t.

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Posted: 30 October 2012 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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sine dues - 30 October 2012 01:07 PM

Oh give me a break sobpatrick- OK! you are wrong ! Stop whining about the fringe edges of science. If you are talking about quantum physics and using English…..you are wrong! It cannot be talked about. You must understand it mathematically. The math is beyond me ( I failed the second semester of calculus…) but it is not beyond understanding. Start off with the basic stuff, understand it and build up from there. Science is not about answers…it is all about the questions.
You sound like a little kid that is going to get in trouble with god if you question god….I dont believe in him but if he does exist I dont want to burn in hell….what do I do? Why wont you answer me god ?

I’m wrong - that’s it? - be specific…I’d like to be right
And i didn’t start out by believing in a higher power - overwhelming evidence lead me to believe that - provide evidence that supports otherwise.

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Posted: 30 October 2012 06:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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I’m guessing you’ve had time to check out Leo Susskind?  Check out “the Hawkings Paradox” on Youtube if you haven’t.  Anyhow, I’ve heard the higgs boson analogies as it’s like paparazzi taking pictures or velcro but only begs the question “what created the higgs? and why should it work as it does, what gives it its properties what is a field, how can something be affected by gravity but have no mass, how can a particle have no mass and still have properties, what is waving in a wave?”  Basically every question you can think of and none can be answered - if you try it will only result in another question.  And you’ve illustrated my point perfectly by referring to the “mystery my son” quote, because at this point it will all be a mystery.  We will never be able to see beyond what the speed of light allows us to see, so yes, the rest of the universe and other universses will always be a mystery - we will never be able to “see” them and hence put them to any test. Same with the micro - we will never see the particle that makes up the particle which makes up light.  Worst of all is the whole Planck level concept.  Science has put a limit on the micro.  Like saying you can’t sail past the horizon or you’ll fall off the earth.  This flies in the face of everything sceince supposedly stands for.  I love sceince, I want to know more but apparently you can’t.  Sorry I don’t believe in crazy magic - whether it be a unicorn or a universe that pops into existance as Hawkins apparently does.


No I read his theory on the holographic principle which led to Hawking’s rethinking his black hole theory concerning energy absobtion near the event horizon. Have you read his latest book “The Grand Design”? It explains the M theory and the branes. Do I completely understand his theories? Hell no! I’m new to physics but the book makes it very clear and is illustrated. Pick up a copy; you won’t be disappointed. On the Higgs, AFAIK no one has come up with it’s origins as yet but once again that doesn’t necessarily Imply a creator. It sounds like you’re desparately seeking the William Paley watchmaker. And no my intention wasn’t to imply that science is a mystery. Well, maybe to a high school student (just stating a fact). Science also says “never say never” ex. “Man will never pass the speed of sound”, “communication without wires? Impossible”, “man will never reach the moon”, and on and on ad infinitum. Our curiosity may one day lead us to discover the branes Hawking, Mlodinow and others are postulating. If not science, then what or whom for answers? A godhead? And if Hawking’s theories need tweaking it will be a fellow scientist to contest them and get us even closer to the facts and sorry but you can know more. I suspect you’ve given up for now. My advice, stay curious.

 


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 30 October 2012 06:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Pambania - 30 October 2012 04:03 PM

sobpatrick, I think your position in philosophic circles is known as the ‘new mysterianism’ (notice the new in it phrase as it underscores the fact that it’s a perrenial standpoint). The problem with such a position is that not only is it defeatist but also presumes to know the answers to questions before taking the pains to analyze them.
    Yes, science (and even philosophy) has increasingly been undertaken in a peacemeal fashion, and not in the wholistic and all-embracing manner of the idealist system-builders of yore who only sought to make reality correspond as closely as possible to their subconscious desires.

Sounds interesting - I’ll look it up, but my belief is simple.  And I’ll keep it to a simple example - for the universe to work inflation needs to be exact to a quintillionth of a point.  That’s like picking one grain of sand out of all the sand on earth.  Or there is something guiding it.  My gut tells me something is guiding it.  Why is that difficult to accept?

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Posted: 30 October 2012 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Imaginos - 30 October 2012 05:00 PM

sobpatrick - 29 October 2012 10:46 PM

Call me stupid

I can’t. I would get banned.

LOL!

Aah, you’re too rough George LOL

The original post was really all over the place I don’t even know where to start… You’d almost have to take it phrase by phrase. gulp

Pick any place you like

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Posted: 30 October 2012 06:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 30 October 2012 05:09 PM

>>Is Atheism doomed to extinction?<<

Nope.

>>Though it may be a fact that it is the fastest growing religion<<

Atheism is not a religion.

It would help if you knew what you were talking about. Don’t try and tell us that you do.

You don’t.

Yeah - I was saying the media call it a religion - I would see it more of a belief system.  What would you call it?  What was it specifically that I don’t know what I’m talking about?  I would like help with it if I don’t know it.  Maybe you could explain it to me? I don’t think I told anyone what to do other than maybe have more kids

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Posted: 30 October 2012 07:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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GdB - 30 October 2012 07:28 AM

sobpatrick,

You find all the answers on TalkOrigins. If you do not understand something, don’t be afraid to ask.

Only your first point (in your second list) might not be mentioned. The answer is simple: if such a thing is the case, we must find empirical evidence for it. Until then there is no reason to suppose such a thing is the case. Against it there are many reasons.

Thanks for the site - I’ll check it out.  As far as empirical evidence goes - I guess I see it in every single particle - I could go on about that but I’ll check out your site before I do.  However I will say that a higher power would know we like puzzles more than blueprints.

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Posted: 30 October 2012 08:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 30 October 2012 06:13 PM

I’m guessing you’ve had time to check out Leo Susskind?  Check out “the Hawkings Paradox” on Youtube if you haven’t.  Anyhow, I’ve heard the higgs boson analogies as it’s like paparazzi taking pictures or velcro but only begs the question “what created the higgs? and why should it work as it does, what gives it its properties what is a field, how can something be affected by gravity but have no mass, how can a particle have no mass and still have properties, what is waving in a wave?”  Basically every question you can think of and none can be answered - if you try it will only result in another question.  And you’ve illustrated my point perfectly by referring to the “mystery my son” quote, because at this point it will all be a mystery.  We will never be able to see beyond what the speed of light allows us to see, so yes, the rest of the universe and other universses will always be a mystery - we will never be able to “see” them and hence put them to any test. Same with the micro - we will never see the particle that makes up the particle which makes up light.  Worst of all is the whole Planck level concept.  Science has put a limit on the micro.  Like saying you can’t sail past the horizon or you’ll fall off the earth.  This flies in the face of everything sceince supposedly stands for.  I love sceince, I want to know more but apparently you can’t.  Sorry I don’t believe in crazy magic - whether it be a unicorn or a universe that pops into existance as Hawkins apparently does.


No I read his theory on the holographic principle which led to Hawking’s rethinking his black hole theory concerning energy absobtion near the event horizon. Have you read his latest book “The Grand Design”? It explains the M theory and the branes. Do I completely understand his theories? Hell no! I’m new to physics but the book makes it very clear and is illustrated. Pick up a copy; you won’t be disappointed. On the Higgs, AFAIK no one has come up with it’s origins as yet but once again that doesn’t necessarily Imply a creator. It sounds like you’re desparately seeking the William Paley watchmaker. And no my intention wasn’t to imply that science is a mystery. Well, maybe to a high school student (just stating a fact). Science also says “never say never” ex. “Man will never pass the speed of sound”, “communication without wires? Impossible”, “man will never reach the moon”, and on and on ad infinitum. Our curiosity may one day lead us to discover the branes Hawking, Mlodinow and others are postulating. If not science, then what or whom for answers? A godhead? And if Hawking’s theories need tweaking it will be a fellow scientist to contest them and get us even closer to the facts and sorry but you can know more. I suspect you’ve given up for now. My advice, stay curious.
Cap’t Jack

Good advice
Unfortunayely I don’t have time to read entire books - I know it sounds pathetic but with so much information online, by the time I’d finish the book the information would change.  I get all my info from the web - mainly youtube science shows/ wikipedia and talking to people like you.  I’ll check out what it says about the book on the web - but Hawkings has been getting a lot of criticism.  Personally I see him as the media go to guy - something like the Donald Trump of physics.  By no means the richest guy - but a player with a recognizable name. There’s a series called “imagining the tenth dimension” that’s pretty interesting and tries to present some of the string/M theory in a understandable way. 

I don’t think I am seeking the paley watchmaker, I think I’m looking at the results.  To me the extreme specificness/fine tuning of ourselves and the universe is the evidence of a creator, though I wouldn’t think this evidence would be accepted universally as a higher power would know we like puzzles more than blueprints.
You quoted some good points but science has impossed its own limits on itself.  We’ll see what happens.  Strange thing about science, it can never come to the conclusion - God did it.

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Posted: 31 October 2012 07:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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The problem is most people have not reasonably assimilated the knowledge that we do have and treat science as another religion.

psik

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Posted: 31 October 2012 08:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Indeed.  Though many acknowledge science as such but actually worship at the altar of environmentalism, feminism, humanism, or something else.

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Posted: 31 October 2012 08:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Dead Monky - 31 October 2012 08:03 AM

Indeed.  Though many acknowledge science as such but actually worship at the altar of environmentalism, feminism, humanism, or something else.

Do you have anything substantive to add to the conversation or are you just here to denigrate entire groups of people?

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Posted: 31 October 2012 08:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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rolleyes Here we go.

I’m not denegrating anyone.  I’ve simply observed that some people who abandon religion replace it with something else.  Usually a cause, social issue, whatever.  That’s not to say that all environmentalists, humanists, minority rights advocates, animal rights folks, or whatever treat their chosen issue like a surrogate for religion, but some certainly do.  I think it’s simply the substituting of one reason for being and fulfillment with another.  Most probably do it without realizing it.

And hell, sometimes people replace their old religion with UFOs or Elvis.  But it would be okay if I denegraded those groups, wouldn’t it? wink

EDIT
Fixes.

[ Edited: 31 October 2012 08:32 AM by Dead Monky ]
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