3 of 26
3
Is Atheism doomed to extinction?
Posted: 31 October 2012 09:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3202
Joined  2011-08-15

Here we go.

I’m not denegrating anyone.  I’ve simply observed that some people who abandon religion replace it with something else.  Usually a cause, social issue, whatever.  That’s not to say that all environmentalists, humanists, minority rights advocates, animal rights folks, or whatever treat their chosen issue like a surrogate for religion, but some certainly do.  I think it’s simply the substituting of one reason for being and fulfillment with another.  Most probably do it without realizing it.

And hell, sometimes people replace their old religion with UFOs or Elvis.  But it would be okay if I denegraded those groups, wouldn’t it?


Yep, I’ve actually seen this on antitheist sites where it is displayed with crusader zeal and no theist is even welcomed, unlike this site where opinions are usually reasonably discussed. there are the occasional references to avian procreation but not often. Besides the moderators would smack you blue if you kept it up. Now DM, don’t step on mah blue suede spaceship. Thank ya, thank ya vury much!


Cap’t Jack
{Couldn’t help editing to get the quotation bracket it the right place. C.J. - Occam}

[ Edited: 31 October 2012 03:46 PM by Occam. ]
 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 October 2012 09:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1283
Joined  2011-03-12

To me the extreme specificness/fine tuning of ourselves and the universe is the evidence of a creator, though I wouldn’t think this evidence would be accepted universally as a higher power would know we like puzzles more than blueprints.

There is no fine tuning to the universe. The assumption that there is comes from the idea that it’s uniquely fine tuned for us humans and the reality is very different.

Not only is the vast majority of the universe uninhabitable for humans, there are regions where even with technological intervention, it’s absoluutely non-survivable.

More to the point, most of Earth is uninhabitable for humans without technological intervention. We are an animal native to the African savannahs and adapted for it.

On the matter of fine tuning the fact that we can only survive in a universe with such narrow perameters is actually an absolutely positive disproof of the existance of your god, since an omnipotant being would be able to create something that could literally survive anywhere regardless of the conditions which existed.

No fine tuning or even the appearance of it would be needed.

 Signature 

Question authority and think for yourself. Big Brother does not know best and never has.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 October 2012 09:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1283
Joined  2011-03-12

Yeah - I was saying the media call it a religion - I would see it more of a belief system.  What would you call it?  What was it specifically that I don’t know what I’m talking about?  I would like help with it if I don’t know it.  Maybe you could explain it to me? I don’t think I told anyone what to do other than maybe have more kids

Atheism is not a belief system…actually, it’s not even a system at all. There is no defined orthodoxy, no creed, zip, zilch, zero, nade, nothing, null program.

It is a lack of belief.

Period.

 Signature 

Question authority and think for yourself. Big Brother does not know best and never has.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 05:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  101
Joined  2010-12-02
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 31 October 2012 09:49 PM

Yeah - I was saying the media call it a religion - I would see it more of a belief system.  What would you call it?  What was it specifically that I don’t know what I’m talking about?  I would like help with it if I don’t know it.  Maybe you could explain it to me? I don’t think I told anyone what to do other than maybe have more kids

Atheism is not a belief system…actually, it’s not even a system at all. There is no defined orthodoxy, no creed, zip, zilch, zero, nade, nothing, null program.

It is a lack of belief.

Period.

But you do believe in something right?  Do you believe in science?  Our current understanding of the universe?  What do YOU believe?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 05:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  101
Joined  2010-12-02
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 31 October 2012 09:45 PM

To me the extreme specificness/fine tuning of ourselves and the universe is the evidence of a creator, though I wouldn’t think this evidence would be accepted universally as a higher power would know we like puzzles more than blueprints.

There is no fine tuning to the universe. The assumption that there is comes from the idea that it’s uniquely fine tuned for us humans and the reality is very different.

Not only is the vast majority of the universe uninhabitable for humans, there are regions where even with technological intervention, it’s absoluutely non-survivable.

More to the point, most of Earth is uninhabitable for humans without technological intervention. We are an animal native to the African savannahs and adapted for it.

On the matter of fine tuning the fact that we can only survive in a universe with such narrow perameters is actually an absolutely positive disproof of the existance of your god, since an omnipotant being would be able to create something that could literally survive anywhere regardless of the conditions which existed.

No fine tuning or even the appearance of it would be needed.

I’m not getting the fine tuning stuff from my imagination - every respectable cosmologist and physist use the term

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 06:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4842
Joined  2007-10-05
sobpatrick - 01 November 2012 05:19 AM

I’m not getting the fine tuning stuff from my imagination - every respectable cosmologist and physist use the term

Emphasis added.

See The Fallacy of Fine Tuning, Victor Stenger’s web page for a primer on why fine tuning is a fallacious argument. I have a framed poster from Astronomy Cast on my wall. The poster says “The universe is trying to kill you.”

Many cosmologists and physicists believe fine tuning is a bad theory. Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg argues against fine tuning.

The scientists who argue in favor of fine tuning are in the minority. Just because they use the term does not mean they agree with the theory.

Poster.png

 Signature 

“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 06:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1283
Joined  2011-03-12

But you do believe in something right?  Do you believe in science?  Our current understanding of the universe?  What do YOU believe?

You’re projecting, and conflating one issue with a host of others. Let’s put a stop to this nonsense right now.

Atheism is not about anything as stupid as “Believe in.” It’s about an absolute lack of any sort of belief in any sort of god or gods.

That’s it. Period. Discussion over.

Science is not about anything as stupid as “Believe in” either. Science is a method for examining and understanding the natural world and universe as it actually is by collecting evidence, constructing a hypothosis, then testing that hypothosis to see if it actually works that way. It’s a constant process of study, experimentation and….get ready for this…revision and updating as more information and evidence is found to clearify and/or even refute a previous understanding.

There is no faith involved.

There is no believe in involved.

I’m not getting the fine tuning stuff from my imagination - every respectable cosmologist and physist use the term

Yes you are and not they don’t. Anyone of those people who even uses fine tuning uses it metephorically, not literally.

In any event, you are grotesquely missing the point. The point being that the universe is not fine tuned for anything…being as it is a place loaded with variables which is actually hostile to life. The other point being that all those claims your (Theists) crowd trots out as the trump card which proves the existance of your god or gods is actually the fatal flaw which disproves it.

 Signature 

Question authority and think for yourself. Big Brother does not know best and never has.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 09:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  101
Joined  2010-12-02
DarronS - 01 November 2012 06:04 AM
sobpatrick - 01 November 2012 05:19 AM

I’m not getting the fine tuning stuff from my imagination - every respectable cosmologist and physist use the term

Emphasis added.

See The Fallacy of Fine Tuning, Victor Stenger’s web page for a primer on why fine tuning is a fallacious argument. I have a framed poster from Astronomy Cast on my wall. The poster says “The universe is trying to kill you.”

Many cosmologists and physicists believe fine tuning is a bad theory. Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg argues against fine tuning.

The scientists who argue in favor of fine tuning are in the minority. Just because they use the term does not mean they agree with the theory.

Poster.png

Well -there are very specific ratios needed to allow the natural forces of the universe not to pull the universe apart and allow gravity to function - exactness to the power of ten to 40.  for inflation - exact to a quintillionth of a point.  The very specific amounts of dark energy needed to make the universe exist is 10 to the power of 122 -more specific than sellecting one atom in the entire universe.  And of course these ratios have to be in place at all times - not once somewhere in the corner of the universe.  This is math telling us this.  Not a lot of room for debate here - but I’d love to see a debate.  Is the math wrong?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 09:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  101
Joined  2010-12-02
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 01 November 2012 06:58 AM

But you do believe in something right?  Do you believe in science?  Our current understanding of the universe?  What do YOU believe?

You’re projecting, and conflating one issue with a host of others. Let’s put a stop to this nonsense right now.

Atheism is not about anything as stupid as “Believe in.” It’s about an absolute lack of any sort of belief in any sort of god or gods.

That’s it. Period. Discussion over.

Science is not about anything as stupid as “Believe in” either. Science is a method for examining and understanding the natural world and universe as it actually is by collecting evidence, constructing a hypothosis, then testing that hypothosis to see if it actually works that way. It’s a constant process of study, experimentation and….get ready for this…revision and updating as more information and evidence is found to clearify and/or even refute a previous understanding.

There is no faith involved.

There is no believe in involved.

I’m not getting the fine tuning stuff from my imagination - every respectable cosmologist and physist use the term

Yes you are and not they don’t. Anyone of those people who even uses fine tuning uses it metephorically, not literally.

In any event, you are grotesquely missing the point. The point being that the universe is not fine tuned for anything…being as it is a place loaded with variables which is actually hostile to life. The other point being that all those claims your (Theists) crowd trots out as the trump card which proves the existance of your god or gods is actually the fatal flaw which disproves it.

Discussion over?  Is that even allowed at the Center for Inquiry?  Yes the universe is extremely, extremely fine tuned and it is so everywhere at all times - the science you are arguing for says nothing but.  Do you know how specific the amount of dark energy is that is needed to make the universe exist?  Do you know about the exactnesee of inflation to make our universe exist?  Are you aware of the equilibrium within the natural forces - how extremely specific it needs to be at all times in all places? (black hole exception of course).
Everyone believes something - atheist or otherwise - just wondering what you believe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 10:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4842
Joined  2007-10-05
sobpatrick - 01 November 2012 09:37 AM

Well -there are very specific ratios needed to allow the natural forces of the universe not to pull the universe apart and allow gravity to function - exactness to the power of ten to 40.  for inflation - exact to a quintillionth of a point.  The very specific amounts of dark energy needed to make the universe exist is 10 to the power of 122 -more specific than sellecting one atom in the entire universe.  And of course these ratios have to be in place at all times - not once somewhere in the corner of the universe.  This is math telling us this.  Not a lot of room for debate here - but I’d love to see a debate.  Is the math wrong?

You didn’t bother reading any of the links I provided. Your math is wrong, very wrong. Yes this is the Center for Inquiry forum. Critical thinking demands you keep your mind open and change your opinion when presented with new information. What you have shown is reaching a conclusion then seeking evidence to support your conclusion while ignoring contradictory evidence. That is ideological thinking, not skepticism.

If you would truly love to see the debate then take the time to educate yourself.

 Signature 

“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 10:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3057
Joined  2010-04-26

Hey, Pat.  Where’d you get your math from anyway?  I’m curious.

 Signature 

“In the end nature is horrific and teaches us nothing.” -Mutual of Omicron

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 05:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2698
Joined  2011-04-24
sobpatrick - 29 October 2012 10:46 PM

Is Atheism doomed to extinction?

Though it may be a fact that it is the fastest growing religion (referred to in the media - I would call it a belief system)

To start with, Atheism is not a religion, or belief system. Humanism or Metaphysical Naturalism could be called belief systems or quasi -  religions maybe, but not Atheism.

I don’t think atheism is doomed, but I do think it will continue to be overshadowed by religion; plainly because most humans are by biology -  faithful rather than rational.

Until we are able to engineer behavioral traits, atheists will be a minority IMO.

 Signature 

Raise your glass if you’re wrong…. in all the right ways.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 05:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2698
Joined  2011-04-24
sobpatrick - 29 October 2012 10:46 PM

3) The credibility in science is in jeopardy as any one can check out youtube and see Stephen Hawkings get his intellectual butt kicked by Leo Susskind, or have just about any current theory presented by a Phd and challenged by another Phd.  How can there be a concensus?

Not really IMO.

Susskind and Hawkings are both scientists debating over a complex hypothesis, and consensus in science in almost always difficult - it’s the nature of the beast.

The public may look at that and say “oh science is bull**** because they can’t even agree”, but the public is scientifically illiterate, so their view is not valid.

[ Edited: 01 November 2012 06:14 PM by mid atlantic ]
 Signature 

Raise your glass if you’re wrong…. in all the right ways.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 05:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6100
Joined  2009-02-26
Lois - 30 October 2012 10:06 AM
sobpatrick - 29 October 2012 10:46 PM

Is Atheism doomed to extinction?

Interesting phrasing.  How can a lack of belief in something face extinction?

The only thing that could affect atheism is objective evidence that a god exists.  Even that wouldn’t do it because there will always people who reject the evidence.

LOL wonderful irony!

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 November 2012 06:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2698
Joined  2011-04-24
sobpatrick - 29 October 2012 10:46 PM

1)  Why advocate the theory of evolution, but not promote the completely logical notion of higher evolved beings?  By not promoting it evolutionists appear to be hiding something, they seem to be defensive or just plain ignorant.  Why say that we could create a monkey cage in six days but hide from the idea that a higher evolved being could create our cage in six days?  I’m not saying it did - just saying why couldn’t it?  And why spend so much energy trying to dismiss it??
2) While I completely understand the notion of survival of the fitest, I can’t see why a molicule would want survive -let alone 6.4 billion of them want to line up extremely specifically in 60 trillion different cells in our body.  Call me stupid - but you can’t get a million Phds to line up specifically, let alone trillions of non-intellegent specks -
3) If you believe in evolution you need to believe we will evolve out of the concept of it.  Just as our brain evolved out of an protazoa - future intellegence -(if there is such a thing) will have no use for our primordial concepts

1) Higher evolved beings could exist, but there isn’t any evidence that they do, so scientifically it’s irrelevant.


2) Molecules don’t want to survive; their activity, like all matter, is controlled by the “laws of physics.” These “laws” are an inherent part of the known universe.


3)I don’t know what you mean by we have to “evolve out of the concept of evolution.”

 Signature 

Raise your glass if you’re wrong…. in all the right ways.

Profile
 
 
   
3 of 26
3