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Is Atheism doomed to extinction?
Posted: 19 November 2012 06:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 316 ]
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arielmessenger - 18 November 2012 09:43 PM

I’m sorry but I got my fill of watching science fiction as a kid watching movies like Forbidden Planet. On TV, we kids watched Space Patrol so when Star Trek came along I had no patience for more such fantasy.

You could have fooled me.

While I was an atheist I was a science-fiction addict, read most all the Sci-Fi greats but after my religious conversion experience I lost interest in Sci-Fi pretty much.

Again, you could have fooled me.  Why go for one resurrection when Kirk has had more resurrections than Jesus Christ.  Spock was resurrected on Genesis even.  Star Trek has better Sci-fi and mythology put together than the Bile.  LOL

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Posted: 19 November 2012 08:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 317 ]
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arielmessenger - 16 November 2012 09:41 PM

The biography of Gene Roddenberry, Star Trek Creator, notes that Forbidden Planet was one of the inspirations for the series Star Trek.

“Forbidden Planet” is one of my favorite movies.  I can definitely see where Gene Roddenberry got some of his inspiration from—in creating his characters and backgrounds.  But you obviously haven’t watched much Star Trek.  Roddenberry’s whole point is that Humans can get along perfectly well without gods.  Then too you seem to overlook that the Krell actually KILLED THEMSELVES with their advanced technology!  So much for being “gods”!

The fact that you use a science fiction movie as an argument shows that you have trouble separating fact from fantasy.  I’m not saying there couldn’t be aliens out there somewhere, but until we actually MEET some, you can’t use FICTIONAL STORIES about them as an argument!

You know, this is sounding like St. Anselm of Canterbury’s old Ontological argument:  basically “if you can imagine something, it must exist somewhere.”  I have to tell you that atheists have never been terribly impressed by that argument.  For example, I love the Harry Potter books, even though magic is impossible because it would violate the three laws of thermodynamics (among other things).  So obviously I can IMAGINE a whole world full of things that don’t really exist.

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Posted: 19 November 2012 08:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 318 ]
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arielmessenger - 17 November 2012 06:30 PM

Human knowledge increases and abilities to alter the way things are
increases over time. The historical record clearly shows this. It is the logic of history that informs the intelligent person it is pure foolish blather for any person at one stage of human knowledge progression to make claims that they know with such certainty they can say any person who doesn’t agree with them is crazy, doesn’t know science, isn’t logical, when they themselves are the ones who have abandoned logic, the logic of history that says what human know today is never the end of knowledge acquisition for human beings, that to hold such an irrational argument against future human powers based on knowledge we as yet do not possess but that certainly does not rule out what we will know and can do with what we know in the future.

I waded through this long run-on sentence with great difficulty, and in the end I have one question:  What the HELL does this have to do with atheism?  You basically seem to be making the point that we can’t be certain of the truth, because it may change tomorrow.  Does that apply to your OWN idea of truth, pray tell?  smile

am not going to keep answering die-hard attempts to deflect or divert the point of my argument that has crushed Atheism, that argument based on the logic of history that is impossible for any rational mind to counter.
c

Nobody’s trying to deflect anything.  You are simply not making yourself clear.

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Posted: 19 November 2012 08:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 319 ]
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advocatus - 19 November 2012 08:09 AM
arielmessenger - 17 November 2012 06:30 PM

Human knowledge increases and abilities to alter the way things are
increases over time. The historical record clearly shows this. It is the logic of history that informs the intelligent person it is pure foolish blather for any person at one stage of human knowledge progression to make claims that they know with such certainty they can say any person who doesn’t agree with them is crazy, doesn’t know science, isn’t logical, when they themselves are the ones who have abandoned logic, the logic of history that says what human know today is never the end of knowledge acquisition for human beings, that to hold such an irrational argument against future human powers based on knowledge we as yet do not possess but that certainly does not rule out what we will know and can do with what we know in the future.

I waded through this long run-on sentence with great difficulty, and in the end I have one question:  What the HELL does this have to do with atheism?  You basically seem to be making the point that we can’t be certain of the truth, because it may change tomorrow.  Does that apply to your OWN idea of truth, pray tell?  smile

am not going to keep answering die-hard attempts to deflect or divert the point of my argument that has crushed Atheism, that argument based on the logic of history that is impossible for any rational mind to counter.
c

Nobody’s trying to deflect anything.  You are simply not making yourself clear.

That’s quite wrong. I’ve made my argument many times now and only atheist hurt egos stuffing cotton up their brain pans are keeping you guys at the attack dog mode. Name-calling, character assassination, always the tools of those without rational argument on their side. And everything you imply about me has been said to Jesus Christ too, it is the common response of most people afraid of the Message prophesy bearers bring. My message here is simple: Atheism is in its End Times as not a one of you has been able to overturn the logic of my argument—you can only spin around and try to point your useless fingers of irrationality at me which won’t work-my logic is unassailable but you won’t admit it. The point is plainly true: Atheists have made up their minds without adequate information because human knowledge increases as time goes by.

Attempts to divert my main point by projecting individual cases of the past into the future as if I my argument was attached to them won’t do the job because the overall Pattern is there for any student of human history to see. The logic of history shows the past does not dictate the future so individual projections of future events are ALL subject to evolutionary forces which will mold and remove aspects of past prophesy. Here’s an easy way to see this: Remember in your mind the old Flash Gordon rocket ships actually reflecting the Art Noveau styles of the ‘30’s but they were an improvement over the big bullet rockets of the late 1800’s. Each era has its own identity stamp which is one of the big reasons I don’t read much science fiction any more. Just tired of our problems and our technology projected into the future as “future” stuff..So individually, no, each projection will be faulty—the logic of evolution dictates only the sustainable forms are carried into the future and they are changed to meet future conditions. But still there’s gold in them thar hills, past prophesy does often lead others to real discoveries inspired by fictional predictions.

And all this human development dooms the atheist ideology that says, Gene Roddenberry, former NASA scientist, knows everything in the future better than Weldon, the writer of Firefly, and therefore the future has no human interaction with real gods or God because Gene Roddenberry, former NASA scientist, says so, while ol’ Jewish Weldon’s got that prominent Spiritual Guy in his story who says “I don’t care what you believe, just believe!” In other words, trust that you don’t know it all and maybe, just maybe, I’m right and spiritual reality is for real. Weldon was the better writer..

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Posted: 19 November 2012 09:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 320 ]
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I like ariel. He clearly demonstrates how overrated education is. Except for a few mistakes here and there (e.g., “1800’s” is wrong, as it should have no apostrophe: i.e., “1800s”) his writing is very good. So even though you can teach a person how to read and write, you can’t teach him how to remain sane. Maybe we are making a mistake insisting that everybody should know how to read and write.

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Posted: 19 November 2012 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 321 ]
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arielmessenger - 19 November 2012 08:43 AM

Atheism is in its End Times as not a one of you has been able to overturn the logic of my argument—you can only spin around and try to point your useless fingers of irrationality at me which won’t work-my logic is unassailable but you won’t admit it.

Sorry, but in you post I found only two arguments, and they are very weak. I mentioned them here:

1. No human being knows for certain how the universe began or how it will end if it does end.
2. Recently brain science has revealed that the human brain is hardwired to experience spiritual events.

That’s it. The rest is just words, words, words.

There is nearly no logic in your argument. If I may make a suggestion? Do not get so outraged. Try to improve your argument, or give better ones. But as far as I can see you are hopelessly overestimating yourself.

And what should we do with this?

arielmessenger - 19 November 2012 08:43 AM

And everything you imply about me has been said to Jesus Christ too, it is the common response of most people afraid of the Message prophesy bearers bring.

Why would we believe you? Why would we not think “oh no, another one with a messias-syndrom”.

For a real messias, I would say your performance is very poor. A lot of hate against atheists…

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Posted: 19 November 2012 04:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 322 ]
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arielmessenger said:

And all this human development dooms the atheist ideology…

There is no such thing as an atheist ideaology.

I think I’ve had it with this troll.

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Posted: 19 November 2012 06:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 323 ]
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I don’t recall if this was mentioned earlier in this thread, however, I believe the statement is almost correct, except for one letter.  It should be:  All this human development dooms the theist ideology. smile

Occam

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Posted: 19 November 2012 06:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 324 ]
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Well, we can’t all be nonbelievers.  And only a special few can be self deluded prophets.  I did appreciate the pro-marijuana article in his website link.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 19 November 2012 10:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 325 ]
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Occam. - 19 November 2012 06:08 PM

I don’t recall if this was mentioned earlier in this thread, however, I believe the statement is almost correct, except for one letter.  It should be:  All this human development dooms the theist ideology. smile

Occam

You wish. Try swallowing the God Gene for starters and then give us your scientific explanation for why any biological creature would evolve brains that register imagination according to atheists. It is imagination that courses through one’s body and mind to make it shudder with the same spine-tingling feeling one gets when
one hears really good music. It is imagination that made the Quakers and Shakers thus shake. It is imagination that made Muhammad sweat when spiritual energy coursed through his mind. I too sweated what seemed buckets in my first encounter with God and spiritual reality. The 40,000 year history of human beings dealing with these “imaginary” forces that somehow are capable of actual physical responses in humans as well as being causes for the evolution of brain capability to process these spiritual events are deemed all a bunch of lies by our atheist friends, not a one of whom has ever had a deep religious experience and thereby knows what he or she is talking about. We have the blind telling the sighted there’s nothing to see when atheists pound out their irrational idea and refuse, like good fundamentalists they are, to look at any evidence to the contrary, e.g ignoring all the recent brain science findings that are just beginning to study the linkage of spirit with mind.

Sorry, atheists. You can call me all the names in the book but it will never help you make your failed ideology work to explain the real world and not the spiritual disabled one atheists unfortunately inhabit. I know, was one myself until age 35 and got woken up by God to a whole new reality that underpins what you see and measure to assure yourselves it’s real.

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Posted: 19 November 2012 11:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 326 ]
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It was a difficult decision, as cross postings are not allowed, But I think this is more important for our messenger.

Found here.

(Interesting: linking in the picture directly does not work. The forum software thinks it is spam.)

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Posted: 20 November 2012 12:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 327 ]
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arielmessenger - 19 November 2012 10:48 PM
Occam. - 19 November 2012 06:08 PM

I don’t recall if this was mentioned earlier in this thread, however, I believe the statement is almost correct, except for one letter.  It should be:  All this human development dooms the theist ideology. smile

Occam

You wish. Try swallowing the God Gene for starters and then give us your scientific explanation for why any biological creature would evolve brains that register imagination according to atheists. It is imagination that courses through one’s body and mind to make it shudder with the same spine-tingling feeling one gets when
one hears really good music. It is imagination that made the Quakers and Shakers thus shake. It is imagination that made Muhammad sweat when spiritual energy coursed through his mind. I too sweated what seemed buckets in my first encounter with God and spiritual reality. The 40,000 year history of human beings dealing with these “imaginary” forces that somehow are capable of actual physical responses in humans as well as being causes for the evolution of brain capability to process these spiritual events are deemed all a bunch of lies by our atheist friends, not a one of whom has ever had a deep religious experience and thereby knows what he or she is talking about. We have the blind telling the sighted there’s nothing to see when atheists pound out their irrational idea and refuse, like good fundamentalists they are, to look at any evidence to the contrary, e.g ignoring all the recent brain science findings that are just beginning to study the linkage of spirit with mind.

Sorry, atheists. You can call me all the names in the book but it will never help you make your failed ideology work to explain the real world and not the spiritual disabled one atheists unfortunately inhabit. I know, was one myself until age 35 and got woken up by God to a whole new reality that underpins what you see and measure to assure yourselves it’s real.

Abilities to imagine, likely developed through natural selection, the same as most other abilities: It gave an advantage in survival to reproduction.  Same thing for emotional based behaviors.

Your obsessive belief system really seems to lead you to be quite closed minded.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 20 November 2012 12:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 328 ]
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arielmessenger - 19 November 2012 10:48 PM
Occam. - 19 November 2012 06:08 PM

I don’t recall if this was mentioned earlier in this thread, however, I believe the statement is almost correct, except for one letter.  It should be:  All this human development dooms the theist ideology. smile

Occam

It is imagination that courses through one’s body and mind to make it shudder with the same spine-tingling feeling one gets when one hears really good music.

Actually imagination is a product of the human brain. Only the chemical responses course through your body.

but nit picking aside,

Yes, I have experienced ecstatic feelings many times. Unfortunately you do not evoke such emotional reponses in me, sorry…..

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Posted: 20 November 2012 02:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 329 ]
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I know arielmessenger won’t heed this, but serendipitously Massimo Pigluicci over at Rationally Speaking reposted an essay titled Tricks of the brain yesterday. In the first paragraph he recommends Cordelia Fine’s book A Mind of its Own: How Our Brain Distorts and Deceives. I love the lead to Pigluicci’s essay:

If you think your brain is an objective processor of data about the world, capable of reaching objective, unbiased conclusions, think again…Our brain can be vain, emotional, deluded, pigheaded, secretive, and bigoted, all of which are words appearing in the chapter titles of Fine’s book.

Our prophet troll displays all those symptoms, except the secretive part.

Anyone want to start a forum pool on how long it takes arielmessenger to get banned?

[ Edited: 20 November 2012 02:44 AM by DarronS ]
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Posted: 20 November 2012 03:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 330 ]
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I know arielmessenger won’t heed this

He’s not interested in heeding anything. He’s not even interested in listening. His shallow lip service to being agnostic notwithstanding, the fact is that he’s just another religionist here to preach.

That’s it.

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