24 of 26
24
Is Atheism doomed to extinction?
Posted: 21 November 2012 12:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 346 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4573
Joined  2007-08-31
sobpatrick - 20 November 2012 06:23 PM

Anyhow - not that I have much time to add fuel to the fire but ask yourself the question - if china had steel, gunpower and printing centuries before europe why didn’t they experience the scientific and/or industrial revolution?

That is a difficult question. But you are right that Christianity has something to do with it. But not in the sense that the Christian world view is correct. Obviously something in the Christian ethics came along, that promoted a scientific world view. According to Max Weber its is the protestant labour ethics. First you should work, and second the success of it can be measured by the money you earn with it. So it is more or less the prequel to the industrial revolution: to earn much, one must develop technology. In China the discoveries were ‘accidental inventions’, and trying to get rich just to feel the ‘praise of the lord’ (and show it to others) did not exist in Confucian culture. Also in China there was a strong influence of Taoism, which is not a philosophy of actively changing the world, but more like living according to the way life already runs.

I also would add that there were theological ideas in the west that one should increase one’s knowledge of the world to see how wonderful God’s creation is: science as glorifying God.

These are just a few hints in why science arose in the West, and not in China. But you should avoid the basic error: that science arose in the West, partially because Christianity, does not mean that we still should be Christians, that Christianity is the only true world view or whatever. Science has show that the Christian metaphysical world view is just wrong.

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2012 01:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 347 ]
Jr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  71
Joined  2012-11-13
GdB - 20 November 2012 08:02 AM
arielmessenger - 20 November 2012 07:36 AM

The great stupidity of atheists is making judgments about spiritual reality without having any spiritual experience.

That is not true for everybody…

The great stupidity of anybody is to make sweeping generalisations about people who think otherwise, be it theists or atheists.

But pointing out the obvious truth is the counter to stupidity. Most intelligent people know better than to make judgments about things they don’t
have any experience in. It’s called “common sense” and yes, common sense often includes sweeping generalizations in order to not waste people’s time
dealing with irrationality.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2012 01:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 348 ]
Jr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  71
Joined  2012-11-13
GdB - 21 November 2012 12:04 AM
sobpatrick - 20 November 2012 06:23 PM

Anyhow - not that I have much time to add fuel to the fire but ask yourself the question - if china had steel, gunpower and printing centuries before europe why didn’t they experience the scientific and/or industrial revolution?

That is a difficult question. But you are right that Christianity has something to do with it. But not in the sense that the Christian world view is correct. Obviously something in the Christian ethics came along, that promoted a scientific world view. According to Max Weber its is the protestant labour ethics. First you should work, and second the success of it can be measured by the money you earn with it. So it is more or less the prequel to the industrial revolution: to earn much, one must develop technology. In China the discoveries were ‘accidental inventions’, and trying to get rich just to feel the ‘praise of the lord’ (and show it to others) did not exist in Confucian culture. Also in China there was a strong influence of Taoism, which is not a philosophy of actively changing the world, but more like living according to the way life already runs.

I also would add that there were theological ideas in the west that one should increase one’s knowledge of the world to see how wonderful God’s creation is: science as glorifying God.

These are just a few hints in why science arose in the West, and not in China. But you should avoid the basic error: that science arose in the West, partially because Christianity, does not mean that we still should be Christians, that Christianity is the only true world view or whatever. Science has show that the Christian metaphysical world view is just wrong.

Good luck with that one. Especially now that Celestial Torah Christianity is here which changes everything you’ve been taught about Christian theology. I mean, just how are you going to go about “explaining” how “science knows” the Christian metaphysical world view is wrong when for starters, you don’t even know the Christian metaphysical world view because it buried from traditional view, and that includes atheists as well, in coded form within the Bible and especially New Testament? Christianity is evolving rapidly now that new revelation has entered and this time from the proper Jewish prophesy bearing tradition and not the Gentile wannabes. Celestial Torah Christianity—it’s a whole new ballgame for everyone who thought they knew everything there is to know about God and the Spirit of Christ.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2012 02:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 349 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4573
Joined  2007-08-31
arielmessenger - 21 November 2012 01:12 AM

I mean, just how are you going to go about “explaining” how “science knows” the Christian metaphysical world view is wrong when for starters, you don’t even know the Christian metaphysical world view because it buried from traditional view, and that includes atheists as well, in coded form within the Bible and especially New Testament?

You did not understand, what? I know the Christian world view from history books. I did not mean your personal reinterpretation of Christianity. The question was why science developed in the West, and not in the East, and I gave a response to that. You are reacting on something what it was not about. Rather irrational, isn’t it?

arielmessenger - 21 November 2012 01:12 AM

Christianity is evolving rapidly now that new revelation has entered and this time from the proper Jewish prophesy bearing tradition and not the Gentile wannabes. Celestial Torah Christianity—it’s a whole new ballgame for everyone who thought they knew everything there is to know about God and the Spirit of Christ.

Is it? You mean these few bytes of your Web page? How many followers do you have already? And they all have exactly the same ‘spiritual revelations’ as you have? And what if these ‘spiritual revelations’ are different? Then they are wrong and you are right?

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2012 02:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 350 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4573
Joined  2007-08-31
arielmessenger - 21 November 2012 01:03 AM

But pointing out the obvious truth is the counter to stupidity. Most intelligent people know better than to make judgments about things they don’t
have any experience in. It’s called “common sense” and yes, common sense often includes sweeping generalizations in order to not waste people’s time
dealing with irrationality.

There are several atheists with spiritual experiences: e.g. Susan Blackmore, Michael Schmidt-Salomon (but you must be able to read German to learn more about him). And still they have a secular world view. Ah, of course, they were not real spiritual experiences, yours are the only that count.

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2012 05:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 351 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
George - 19 November 2012 09:06 AM

I like ariel. He clearly demonstrates how overrated education is. Except for a few mistakes here and there (e.g., “1800’s” is wrong, as it should have no apostrophe: i.e., “1800s”) his writing is very good. So even though you can teach a person how to read and write, you can’t teach him how to remain sane. Maybe we are making a mistake insisting that everybody should know how to read and write.

He’s actually made a lot more mistakes than that.  He does not actually have a good grasp of the English language.  Irrational thinking spills over into language skills, too.  It’s sad because he might have been born with decent intellectual abilities but religious roadblocks have kept them from developing—a common occurrence.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2012 05:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 352 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29
sobpatrick - 20 November 2012 06:23 PM

I think many forget that the major contibutors to the sceintific revolution were mainly educated by priests and for the most part, very religious.  Anyhow - not that I have much time to add fuel to the fire but ask yourself the question - if china had steel, gunpower and printing centuries before europe why didn’t they experience the scientific and/or industrial revolution?

Because China at that time didn’t have enough intelligent and productive people to make a use of their discoveries. Europe did and that’s why they were the first ones to make the transformation into a modern world. Japan then caught up and later even China; India is slowly getting there, too—or at least a part of it.

If Christianity was the solution to that problem, then the very Christian South America would be as technologically advanced as is Europe. And it is not.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2012 06:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 353 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4860
Joined  2007-10-05
Lois - 21 November 2012 05:20 AM

It’s sad because he might have been born with decent intellectual abilities…

I’m betting the under.

 Signature 

You cannot have a rational conversation with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2012 08:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 354 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7614
Joined  2007-03-02
arielmessenger - 21 November 2012 01:03 AM
GdB - 20 November 2012 08:02 AM
arielmessenger - 20 November 2012 07:36 AM

The great stupidity of atheists is making judgments about spiritual reality without having any spiritual experience.

That is not true for everybody…

The great stupidity of anybody is to make sweeping generalisations about people who think otherwise, be it theists or atheists.

But pointing out the obvious truth is the counter to stupidity. Most intelligent people know better than to make judgments about things they don’t
have any experience in. It’s called “common sense” and yes, common sense often includes sweeping generalizations in order to not waste people’s time
dealing with irrationality.

Really?  Then why do people make judgments about vegetarians when they have no idea why one is a vegetarian?  If it is so irrational to judge others (which I agree) and common sense not to judge, then why do so many people do it?  Your statement does not fit the reality of human nature at all.

 Signature 

Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2012 08:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 355 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  983
Joined  2005-01-14
arielmessenger - 21 November 2012 01:03 AM

But pointing out the obvious truth is the counter to stupidity. Most intelligent people know better than to make judgments about things they don’t have any experience in. It’s called “common sense” and yes, common sense often includes sweeping generalizations in order to not waste people’s time dealing with irrationality.

I find this quite an ironic statement coming from someone who criticizes atheism while knowing nothing about us!  smile

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2012 09:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 356 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3254
Joined  2011-08-15

Because China at that time didn’t have enough intelligent and productive people to make a use of their discoveries. Europe did and that’s why they were the first ones to make the transformation into a modern world. Japan then caught up and later even China; India is slowly getting there, too—or at least a part of it.

And the irony here, at least re the Japanese is that the nobles kicked out the Portuguese for proselytizing and they executed converts for opposing the divinity of the emperor. They remained purposely backward technologically until forceably opened up by the U S in 1853, and then signed commercial treaties in order to modernize under the Meiji restoration. Whereas China slowly began modernization due to the weakness of their monarch and warlordism remaining fractured until World War II and later Mao who killed millions attempting to catch up to the west technologically.

 

Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2012 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 357 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3326
Joined  2011-11-04
arielmessenger - 21 November 2012 01:12 AM

[
... you don’t even know the Christian metaphysical world view because it buried from traditional view, and that includes atheists as well, in coded form within the Bible and especially New Testament? ....

Oh dear, is this another Ectocorngod-like phenomena?

 Signature 

As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2012 02:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 358 ]
Jr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  71
Joined  2012-11-13
advocatus - 21 November 2012 08:15 AM
arielmessenger - 21 November 2012 01:03 AM

But pointing out the obvious truth is the counter to stupidity. Most intelligent people know better than to make judgments about things they don’t have any experience in. It’s called “common sense” and yes, common sense often includes sweeping generalizations in order to not waste people’s time dealing with irrationality.

I find this quite an ironic statement coming from someone who criticizes atheism while knowing nothing about us!  smile

Your post accurately reflects atheist stupidity that neglects to research the data base before marching off with the wrong conclusions. If you had read my posts you would have discovered that I said I was an atheist until age 35. I was an anthropology major at U.C. Berkeley (yes, my IQ is in the genius range) I rarely thought about God as I was a thoroughly science-explains all type of person and actually found Christianity a morbid religion. All that changed within three days when I was put through a crash course in spiritual consciousness by God who had work for me to do. That was 33 years ago and through the intervening years more visions and revelations arrived and despite all atheists attempts to belittle me my spiritual work has already affected hundreds of people. 500+ at one time at Easter where one of the visions God had me fashion so wowed Nazarean Christians that they honored me at in the Church of St. John’s courtyard at the end of the annual Easter Procession through Nazareth, Israel.
I’ve had tea with the Melkite Greek Orthodox Archbishop of the whole Holy Land Diocese and two Palestinian peace organizations have also honored my work. One of the Lakota’s top leaders is my friend and there too my spiritual visionary work moves along despite all your atheists belittling of stuff you have no idea what’s going on because you’re all outsiders to spiritual experience and yet, like fools, you still think you are qualified to make judgments of those not spiritually disabled like yourselves.

Why don’t you all get off your duffers and do something positive for a change if you don’t like what religionists do in the world. There’s historical evidence just waiting to be distributed throughout intellectual circles that pulls the rug out from under all the Abrahamic religions which is how Brahma became Abraham in the Near East. Why not
show some actual proof for a change that Abrahamic religions are bogus? Instead you continue your minor attacks on theists as if that had any point at all to it other than stroking your egos. Pauline Christians are easy targets but then again, so are you guys, both of you suffering from irrational ideologies based on prejudices and not reasoned argument.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2012 03:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 359 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3326
Joined  2011-11-04

Your “reasoned argument” is backed by subjective experiences of “visions and revelations”.  This just won’t fly with skeptics.  And an extraordinarily high IQ does not make one immune to delusionality.

Also rational attacks on Abrahamic religions, no matter how well presented with supporting objective evidence, are unlikely to sway the faithful in those religions, as faith is not based on objective evidence.

 Signature 

As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 November 2012 04:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 360 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7614
Joined  2007-03-02
arielmessenger - 21 November 2012 02:56 PM

Why don’t you all get off your duffers and do something positive for a change if you don’t like what religionists do in the world.

I did.  I campaigned for Obama 4 years, helped to get him into office, my sons, who were of age voted too and here he is in office again for 4 more years.  I say that’s pretty positive, esp since he seems like a good role model for my sons and others like them.

There’s historical evidence just waiting to be distributed throughout intellectual circles that pulls the rug out from under all the Abrahamic religions which is how Brahma became Abraham in the Near East. Why not show some actual proof for a change that Abrahamic religions are bogus? Instead you continue your minor attacks on theists as if that had any point at all to it other than stroking your egos. Pauline Christians are easy targets but then again, so are you guys, both of you suffering from irrational ideologies based on prejudices and not reasoned argument.

Not sure what apologists you’ve been reading, but there isn’t any proof that Jesus even existed (as portrayed in the Bile) and it’s questionable that Muhammad even lived.  I could make a case that Abraham and Brahma are actually one in the same, but are told by different cultures to fit their own cultures.  Seems to me, that if one believes rewritten myth to be reality, they are the ones who are irrational and delusional.

 Signature 

Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

Profile
 
 
   
24 of 26
24