Now, how in the world does some determining factor force someone to act against their will when they actually do do what they want?
The will is forced upon them.
Stephen
No, that doesn’t work. If a factor forces a direction in someone’s will, then this someone will still want to act in accordance with their will, not against it. Where the will came from doesn’t matter. Will it ever be possible for a conversation about free will to make sense? Is there a William on this board? Will William please will us some goodwill?
Sorry. William willed that I will to write that swill. It wasn’t actually my will at all - oh wait, yes it was.
It matters a great deal as far as blame, guilt, praise, shame, responsibility, punishment and so on are concerned.
The point is where the will came from is out of our control and so we are merely lucky or unlucky to have the will we have.
People imagine that what happens to us as a result of our chosen actions is fair in a way it just can’t be if we are merely lucky or unlucky to get the will we get.
It’s like imagining that someone can deserve to win or lose the lottery.
Agreed the only version of free will that makes sense is compatible with the will we get being the luck of the draw, but it matters because that isn’t the version that is predominantly believed in.
It matters a great deal as far as blame, guilt, praise, shame, responsibility, punishment and so on are concerned.
The point is where the will came from is out of our control and so we are merely lucky or unlucky to have the will we have.
People imagine that what happens to us as a result of our chosen actions is fair in a way it just can’t be if we are merely lucky or unlucky to get the will we get.
It’s like imagining that someone can deserve to win or lose the lottery.
Agreed the only version of free will that makes sense is compatible with the will we get being the luck of the draw, but it matters because that isn’t the version that is predominantly believed in.
Stephen
And we’re back to the social definition of free will, not a metaphysical. Blame and responsibility are social constructs.
But also consider that there is a familiar ‘great hole of logic’ problem here: if William (to use my above inane example) wills me to will something, who or what wills William? There is an infinite-regression problem in that definition of free will.
It matters a great deal as far as blame, guilt, praise, shame, responsibility, punishment and so on are concerned.
The point is where the will came from is out of our control and so we are merely lucky or unlucky to have the will we have.
People imagine that what happens to us as a result of our chosen actions is fair in a way it just can’t be if we are merely lucky or unlucky to get the will we get.
It’s like imagining that someone can deserve to win or lose the lottery.
Agreed the only version of free will that makes sense is compatible with the will we get being the luck of the draw, but it matters because that isn’t the version that is predominantly believed in.
Stephen
And we’re back to the social definition of free will, not a metaphysical. Blame and responsibility are social constructs.
Perhaps but this misses the point. People believe that it isn’t luck who gets the bad stuff and who gets the good stuff. They believe we have the power to overcome the luck.
The “social construct” is, at the moment, based on this “mean social myth”. People who draw the short straw really don’t need the extra burden of they deserve it and it really doesn’t help for the lucky ones to think they do either.
And that is why it does matter a great deal that we are merely fortunate or unfortunate to get the will we do, the belief we have libertarian free will has tremendous influence.
But also consider that there is a familiar ‘great hole of logic’ problem here: if William (to use my above inane example) wills me to will something, who or what wills William? There is an infinite-regression problem in that definition of free will.
Of course I agree, but this is of no consequence because 1) People predominately believe in it regardless. 2) It doesn’t stop the myth influencing people.
Stephen,
Belief in ultimate responsibility is a curse.
A burden perhaps, but a curse?.. WHHHOOOoooooo!
OT, yes, I believe that non-human animals can have and do use free will in he same context that humans exercise free will.
Hi Writer4U,
I’m gonna wrap this up here because I have nothing new to add, of course.
But the point is it is a curse, we aren’t ultimately responsible and it matters.
You need to realise what compatibilist free will is compatible with. The person who get’s the blame could have selected another option but not without the entire causal chain stretching back to the big bang also being different. They were merely unlucky that it wasn’t.
This is a far cry from the free will that people’s thoughts and feelings about this are based upon in which the agent is totally and alone at being at fault.
Stephen,
Belief in ultimate responsibility is a curse.
A burden perhaps, but a curse?.. WHHHOOOoooooo!
OT, yes, I believe that non-human animals can have and do use free will in he same context that humans exercise free will.
Hi Writer4U,
I’m gonna wrap this up here because I have nothing new to add, of course.
But the point is it is a curse, we aren’t ultimately responsible and it matters.
You need to realise what compatibilist free will is compatible with. The person who get’s the blame could have selected another option but not without the entire causal chain stretching back to the big bang also being different. They were merely unlucky that it wasn’t.
This is a far cry from the free will that people’s thoughts and feelings about this are based upon in which the agent is totally and alone at being at fault.
Stephen
I feel your pain.
(By which I mean that we should get the word out that libertarian free will does not exist, but that the effort to do so may be futile.)
I’ kann nicht mehr gut lesen. Ich hab zu viel schon vergessen.
Plus, I never had a good enough command of German to read complex reading such as philosophy or car repair manuals etc.
Mein Deutsch is nuer gut fuer einfach diskutierren.
Aber vielen dank, u. ich wuensch dir alles. Obama ist immer noch unsere President hier!
Wir sehen uns spaeter alter. Firtig…
A burden perhaps, but a curse?.. 
WHHHOOOoooooo!
