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Do non-human animals have free will?
Posted: 06 April 2013 02:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 541 ]
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Write4U - 05 April 2013 04:09 PM

Why does no one ever bring up the word Potential when discussing the metaphysical concepts of the future.. 

Because it adds nothing to thinking about the future.

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Posted: 06 April 2013 05:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 542 ]
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GdB - 06 April 2013 02:24 AM
Write4U - 05 April 2013 04:09 PM

Why does no one ever bring up the word Potential when discussing the metaphysical concepts of the future.. 

Because it adds nothing to thinking about the future.

GdB- Therefore the essence of our wishes and beliefs lies not its physical implementation

I answered that the essence of our wishes and beliefs lie in our recognition of potential which may become reality, the Implicate Order. Our choices for action are made from implied futures.

[ Edited: 06 April 2013 05:44 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 06 April 2013 10:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 543 ]
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Write4U - 05 April 2013 11:23 PM
StephenLawrence - 05 April 2013 11:02 PM
Write4U - 05 April 2013 04:09 PM

Why does no one ever bring up the word Potential when discussing the metaphysical concepts of the future..  ,

I think it’s probably because it’s covered by the words possibilities and abilities. Not sure?

Stephen

In that case the answer would be that there is nothing to forbid non-humans animals from possessing or exercising FW?

It depends upon what you mean by free will. You might be referring to free will compatible with one possible future given the past, in which case there is no problem.

The tea in my cup has the potential to blow up my house. But I don’t think that means it could happen this afternoon due to indeterminism.

Stephen

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Posted: 06 April 2013 10:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 544 ]
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Write4U - 06 April 2013 05:38 AM

I answered that the essence of our wishes and beliefs lie in our recognition of potential which may become reality, ....

Yep.

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Posted: 06 April 2013 01:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 545 ]
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StephenLawrence - 06 April 2013 10:38 AM
Write4U - 05 April 2013 11:23 PM
StephenLawrence - 05 April 2013 11:02 PM
Write4U - 05 April 2013 04:09 PM

Why does no one ever bring up the word Potential when discussing the metaphysical concepts of the future..  ,

I think it’s probably because it’s covered by the words possibilities and abilities. Not sure?

Stephen

In that case the answer would be that there is nothing to forbid non-humans animals from possessing or exercising FW?

It depends upon what you mean by free will. You might be referring to free will compatible with one possible future given the past, in which case there is no problem.

The tea in my cup has the potential to blow up my house. But I don’t think that means it could happen this afternoon due to indeterminism.

Stephen

No, because you already determined that you wanted a cup of tea and made it for the specific purpose of drinking it, i.e. a compatible future.  Not much different than a chimp stripping the leaves off a twig in order to have better access to the termite hole, a compatibilist free will action.

Could we say that compatibilist free will action exists, “when an organism is capable of taking conscious preliminary action to improve its chances of obtaining what it wants in the future”. (?)

[ Edited: 06 April 2013 01:47 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 06 April 2013 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 546 ]
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Question,

Are “accidental” genetic mutations caused or uncaused?

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Posted: 07 April 2013 12:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 547 ]
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Write4U - 06 April 2013 01:36 PM
StephenLawrence - 06 April 2013 10:38 AM
Write4U - 05 April 2013 11:23 PM
StephenLawrence - 05 April 2013 11:02 PM
Write4U - 05 April 2013 04:09 PM

Why does no one ever bring up the word Potential when discussing the metaphysical concepts of the future..  ,

I think it’s probably because it’s covered by the words possibilities and abilities. Not sure?

Stephen

In that case the answer would be that there is nothing to forbid non-humans animals from possessing or exercising FW?

It depends upon what you mean by free will. You might be referring to free will compatible with one possible future given the past, in which case there is no problem.

The tea in my cup has the potential to blow up my house. But I don’t think that means it could happen this afternoon due to indeterminism.

Stephen

No, because you already determined that you wanted a cup of tea and made it for the specific purpose of drinking it, i.e. a compatible future.  Not much different than a chimp stripping the leaves off a twig in order to have better access to the termite hole, a compatibilist free will action.

Could we say that compatibilist free will action exists, “when an organism is capable of taking conscious preliminary action to improve its chances of obtaining what it wants in the future”. (?)


And overriding all other factors by sheer “will”, even the millions he’s not aware of? Nice trick.

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Posted: 07 April 2013 01:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 548 ]
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I disagree,
IMO, free will does not override anything, it selects a possible future compatible with all possible futures and acts toward achieving a specific self-determined goal. All compatible with determinism in general because it does not override cause and effect.

[ Edited: 07 April 2013 01:51 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 07 April 2013 04:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 549 ]
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Write4U - 07 April 2013 01:49 AM

I disagree,
IMO, free will does not override anything, it selects a possible future compatible with all possible futures and acts toward achieving a specific self-determined goal. All compatible with determinism in general because it does not override cause and effect.

That’s fine.

But there is something else that people refer to as free will and you do seem to have believed in it in the past.

Say a person has the potential to do well in life but screws up. That person is unlucky because that is the only thing he can do given his distant past. He has no control of his distant past, it’s just the luck of the draw. He got the bad distant past so he screwed up. If you’d got it you’d have screwed up. You were lucky, he wasn’t.

It’s 100% luck in this respect.

Almost everybody believes this isn’t true. That we have some power that makes this untrue. In other words that we have something that makes us ultimately responsible for our success or failure.

It’s could have done otherwise in such a way that makes us ultimately responsible.

And people call it Free Will.

Stephen

I think this talk from Sam Harris is good at explaining this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FanhvXO9Pk

[ Edited: 07 April 2013 04:34 AM by StephenLawrence ]
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Posted: 07 April 2013 04:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 550 ]
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Write4U - 06 April 2013 01:36 PM

Could we say that compatibilist free will action exists, “when an organism is capable of taking conscious preliminary action to improve its chances of obtaining what it wants in the future”. (?)

Perhaps.

The key word is capable though. There are many things we are capable of but it’s impossible for us to do them given our past. You need what you are capable of to be the only possible thing you can do given your past, for it to happen.

When we blame people for not doing what they are capable of it’s important to be aware that they would have had to have a different distant past to do it and they are unlucky that they didn’t.

Almost everybody denies this and that denial is what is also called belief in Free Will.

Stephen

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Posted: 07 April 2013 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 551 ]
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Write4U - 07 April 2013 01:49 AM

I disagree,
IMO, free will does not override anything, it selects a possible future compatible with all possible futures and acts toward achieving a specific self-determined goal. All compatible with determinism in general because it does not override cause and effect.

If “free will” goes against other factors, it would have to override them to affect a detemined decision. If your determining factors, most of which you are not aware of, lead you to make a particular decision how can some independent part of you make a different one without overriding those factors? Where does that will come from if it’s separate from your determining factors?  My contention is there is no part of you that can override them. You can only persuade yourself that some independent “you” somehow made the decision independent of all the other factors, no matter how strong they are and no matter how unaware you are of them. Who is this “you” who can separate itself from what went into creating your character and driving your decisions?

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Posted: 07 April 2013 12:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 552 ]
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Lois - 07 April 2013 09:18 AM
Write4U - 07 April 2013 01:49 AM

I disagree,
IMO, free will does not override anything, it selects a possible future compatible with all possible futures and acts toward achieving a specific self-determined goal. All compatible with determinism in general because it does not override cause and effect.

If “free will” goes against other factors, it would have to override them to affect a detemined decision. If your determining factors, most of which you are not aware of, lead you to make a particular decision how can some independent part of you make a different one without overriding those factors? Where does that will come from if it’s separate from your determining factors?  My contention is there is no part of you that can override them. You can only persuade yourself that some independent “you” somehow made the decision independent of all the other factors, no matter how strong they are and no matter how unaware you are of them. Who is this “you” who can separate itself from what went into creating your character and driving your decisions?

I don’t disagree with that. Determinism is a given.  However I still believe that we are able to make choices without breaking determining factors.
IOW, ultimately what I do will be chemically and mathematically determined by the exact circumstances under which I must act, but within that limitation there are non-pertubative choices that can be made.

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Posted: 07 April 2013 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 553 ]
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Write4U - 07 April 2013 12:13 PM


IOW, ultimately what I do will be chemically and mathematically determined by the exact circumstances under which I must act, but within that limitation there are non-pertubative choices that can be made.

This looks very much like indeterminism to me Writer4U.

We can easily check and see. Do you believe there is only one choice you can possibly make given the exact preceding and surrounding circumstances?

Or do you believe there is more than one?

Stephen

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Posted: 07 April 2013 05:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 554 ]
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StephenLawrence - 07 April 2013 12:44 PM
Write4U - 07 April 2013 12:13 PM


IOW, ultimately what I do will be chemically and mathematically determined by the exact circumstances under which I must act, but within that limitation there are non-pertubative choices that can be made.

This looks very much like indeterminism to me Writer4U.

We can easily check and see. Do you believe there is only one choice you can possibly make given the exact preceding and surrounding circumstances?

Or do you believe there is more than one?

Stephen

My choice might be based on the exact preceding circumstances, but my acts might be totally irrelevant to other more powerful forces also present in that circumstance. Obviously, if a star decides to go nova, any wishes, desires, and life itself is totally irrelevant for a hefty chunk of the universe.

So, sometimes my wishes and desires may be causal to the determining outcome, sometimes my wishes and desires are of no consequence whatever.

I believe the future is not fixed (pre-determined). The very complexity of present causal interaction offer an uncertainty of future probabilities in many areas. Many possible futures are implied in the present circumstance, take your pick.
Is “uncertainty” not an accepted cosmic principle? The future cannot be calculated because it is impossible to fix a future position in spacetime and rate of change (speed, trajectory) through spacetime at the same time It is logically forbidden. That is what the Uncertainty principle observes, no?

What if there are conflicting actions by several parties?  Only one future can become physical reality, but when there are competing influences on determining factors, the action with the greatest impact on its surroundings will be dominant. Of course we then say the action was coerced, but does that make a difference in a discussion about being able to exercise a certain discretion in a given situation, regardless which physical function is used?  Each individual mind is an emerging (excellence) product that transcends the sum of its physical values.
Psychologically, within one’s own universe, one is exercising free will in order to satisfy one’s wishes and desires.

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Posted: 07 April 2013 08:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 555 ]
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Write4U - 07 April 2013 12:13 PM
Lois - 07 April 2013 09:18 AM
Write4U - 07 April 2013 01:49 AM

I disagree,
IMO, free will does not override anything, it selects a possible future compatible with all possible futures and acts toward achieving a specific self-determined goal. All compatible with determinism in general because it does not override cause and effect.

If “free will” goes against other factors, it would have to override them to affect a detemined decision. If your determining factors, most of which you are not aware of, lead you to make a particular decision how can some independent part of you make a different one without overriding those factors? Where does that will come from if it’s separate from your determining factors?  My contention is there is no part of you that can override them. You can only persuade yourself that some independent “you” somehow made the decision independent of all the other factors, no matter how strong they are and no matter how unaware you are of them. Who is this “you” who can separate itself from what went into creating your character and driving your decisions?

I don’t disagree with that. Determinism is a given.  However I still believe that we are able to make choices without breaking determining factors.
IOW, ultimately what I do will be chemically and mathematically determined by the exact circumstances under which I must act, but within that limitation there are non-pertubative choices that can be made.

How would that work?  Your determining factors move you to decide in a certain way.  What happens next?

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