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Do non-human animals have free will?
Posted: 08 April 2013 05:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 571 ]
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StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 05:37 AM

Well, the fact is if A had been different without any other differences that would be indeterminism.

OK. That is your interpretation from my interpretation. You are talking metaphysics, where I am talking semantics. I talk about what such sentences mean, but you think they only mean something when we introduce indeterminism, but that is a metaphysical standpoint, not a semantic. We perfectly know what counter-factual sentences mean, without adhering to some specific metaphysical theory about the universe.

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Posted: 08 April 2013 05:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 572 ]
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GdB - 08 April 2013 05:48 AM
StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 05:37 AM

Well, the fact is if A had been different without any other differences that would be indeterminism.

OK. That is your interpretation from my interpretation. You are talking metaphysics, where I am talking semantics. I talk about what such sentences mean, but you think they only mean something when we introduce indeterminism, but that is a metaphysical standpoint, not a semantic. We perfectly know what counter-factual sentences mean, without adhering to some specific metaphysical theory about the universe.

I don’t accept you can escape like this.

We don’t know perfectly well what counterfactual sentences mean at all. And they mean nothing at all without some underlying metaphysics.

Either you are talking about all else as near the same as possible so that A would be caused.

Or you are talking about all else exactly the same which would be indeterminism whether you like it or not.

Stephen

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Posted: 08 April 2013 06:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 573 ]
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StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 05:58 AM

I don’t accept you can escape like this.

LOL

StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 05:58 AM

We don’t know perfectly well what counterfactual sentences mean at all. And they mean nothing at all without some underlying metaphysics.

I am 100% sure you use counter-factual sentences daily, and you have no problem with it at all, neither have the people you are talking with. And you even do not know if you share the same metaphysics!

I think it will be difficult then to make plans with you, say for going on a holiday. You do not have to plan them at all factually, because where you go is determined. You have no options where to go to. Or have you?

[ Edited: 08 April 2013 06:24 AM by GdB ]
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Posted: 08 April 2013 06:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 574 ]
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GdB - 08 April 2013 06:22 AM
StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 05:58 AM

I don’t accept you can escape like this.

LOL

StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 05:58 AM

We don’t know perfectly well what counterfactual sentences mean at all. And they mean nothing at all without some underlying metaphysics.

I am 100% sure you use counter-factual sentences daily, and you have no problem with it at all, neither have the people you are talking with. And you even do not know if you share the same metaphysics!

I think it will be difficult then to make plans with you, say for going on a holiday. You do not have to plan them at all factually, because where you go is determined. You have no options where to go to. Or have you?


When we talk about what would be the case if A were the case, either we are talking about all else exactly the same or we are not.

If we are then it follows that if A were the case indeterminism would be true.

These are the facts.

I simply believe we are not talking about all else exactly the same.

Stephen

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Posted: 08 April 2013 07:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 575 ]
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Sorry Stephen,

I say it once more:

I am 100% sure you use counter-factual sentences daily, and you have no problem with it at all, neither have the people you are talking with.

So you perfectly know what such sentences mean. Counter-factual sentences are part of the key of understanding the world, of causality, and with that, of determinism.

Denial of that is useless.

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Posted: 08 April 2013 07:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 576 ]
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GdB - 08 April 2013 07:05 AM

Sorry Stephen,

I say it once more:

I am 100% sure you use counter-factual sentences daily, and you have no problem with it at all, neither have the people you are talking with.

So you perfectly know what such sentences mean. Counter-factual sentences are part of the key of understanding the world, of causality, and with that, of determinism.

Denial of that is useless.

This is a straw man Gdb.

The disagreement is over “all else exactly the same” as you know.

And my point is if you stick to your interpretation there is a conclusion which follows and you are ducking the conclusion.

The conclusion is if A had been different indeterminism would be true. edit perhaps this is better: If A had been different indeterminism would have been true.

You are trying to escape the conclusion by splitting off semantics from metaphysics. But there is a fact of the matter either the statement is true or false and there is no escape.

[ Edited: 08 April 2013 07:18 AM by StephenLawrence ]
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Posted: 08 April 2013 07:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 577 ]
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You do not react on my remark that you use counter-factual statements daily, in a fully unproblematic way. That you do not assert that is not honest.

Only when you see that you use them all the time, you can have a look why those sentences are meaningful, and they were also in a deterministic world.

That you do not assert it, says to me that you see the problem.

[ Edited: 08 April 2013 07:33 AM by GdB ]
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Posted: 08 April 2013 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 578 ]
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GdB - 08 April 2013 07:25 AM

You do not react on my remark that you use counter-factual statements daily, in a fully unproblematic way. That you do no assert that is not honest.

Because it’s a strawman.

Only when you see that you use them all the time, you can have a look why those sentences are meaningful, and they were also in a deterministic world.

That you do not assert it, says to me that you see the problem.

Not at all, to repeat this is your strawman.

Of course I think counterfactual statements are meaningful.

I think your interpretation of them is is wrong and if it were right my conclusion about indeterminism would follow.

I think you live with the contradiction of interpreting “all else the same” as you do but denying the conclusion that logically follows from that.

Stephen

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Posted: 08 April 2013 08:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 579 ]
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StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 07:38 AM

Of course I think counterfactual statements are meaningful.

So you use them unproblematically in daily life?

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Posted: 08 April 2013 08:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 580 ]
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GdB - 08 April 2013 08:15 AM
StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 07:38 AM

Of course I think counterfactual statements are meaningful.

So you use them unproblematically in daily life?

Yes GdB and this is just your way of changing the subject. This has nothing to do with what I’m saying.

The topic is your interpretation of “all else the same” and what logically follows from that.

So if I had wanted to go to Paris all else exactly the same yesterday then indeterminism would have been true.

It would have been true because my want would have been uncaused.

Stephen

[ Edited: 08 April 2013 08:42 AM by StephenLawrence ]
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Posted: 08 April 2013 08:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 581 ]
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StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 08:34 AM
GdB - 08 April 2013 08:15 AM
StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 07:38 AM

Of course I think counterfactual statements are meaningful.

So you use them unproblematically in daily life?

Yes GdB and this is just your way of changing the subject.

No, I am not. According to your philosophy, counter-factual sentences would also not work in daily life. But you admit that they work. For me that is inconsistent.

StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 08:34 AM

The topic is your interpretation of all else the same and what logically follows from that.

We can only come to this point when you see that the meaning of counter-factual sentences is unproblematic.

“Oh, I could have bought a pack of coffee if I would have known we were run out of it!”

True or not? Is that a problematic sentence? You are using such sentences, don’t you? And you know perfectly well what they mean!

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Posted: 08 April 2013 08:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 582 ]
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GdB - 08 April 2013 08:43 AM

No, I am not. According to your philosophy, counter-factual sentences would also not work in daily life. But you admit that they work. For me that is inconsistent.

That is a baseless assertion.

“Oh, I could have bought a pack of coffee if I would have known we were run out of it!”

True or not? Is that a problematic sentence? You are using such sentences, don’t you? And you know perfectly well what they mean!

What I think it means is all else as near to the same as possible so that knowing we would have run out would be caused.

It would be weird to imagine having knowledge without some other difference.

Stephen

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Posted: 08 April 2013 09:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 583 ]
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StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 08:48 AM
GdB - 08 April 2013 08:43 AM

No, I am not. According to your philosophy, counter-factual sentences would also not work in daily life. But you admit that they work. For me that is inconsistent.

That is a baseless assertion.

You think that counter-factual sentences have no meaning in a deterministic world.
You think we live in a deterministic world.
You think counter-factual statements are meaningful.

Or is one of the above propositions false?

StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 08:48 AM

What I think it means is all else as near to the same as possible so that knowing we would have run out would be caused.

It would be weird to imagine having knowledge without some other difference.

So then you are not a determinist!

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Posted: 08 April 2013 09:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 584 ]
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GdB - 08 April 2013 09:02 AM
StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 08:48 AM
GdB - 08 April 2013 08:43 AM

No, I am not. According to your philosophy, counter-factual sentences would also not work in daily life. But you admit that they work. For me that is inconsistent.

That is a baseless assertion.

You think that counter-factual sentences have no meaning in a deterministic world.
You think we live in a deterministic world.
You think counter-factual statements are meaningful.

Or is one of the above propositions false?

The first proposition is false.

Worth pointing out that the way I see your counterfactuals they have meaning in a deterministic world. It’s just that the world wouldn’t be deterministic if you did otherwise.

It would be weird to imagine having knowledge without some other difference.

So then you are not a determinist!

The question arises how could I have knowledge I don’t have and we imagine some scenario in which I would be caused to have the knowledge.

What I don’t think is I just could have the knowledge all else exactly the same, and nor do you.

Stephen

[ Edited: 08 April 2013 09:38 AM by StephenLawrence ]
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Posted: 08 April 2013 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 585 ]
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StephenLawrence - 08 April 2013 09:34 AM

The first proposition is false.

So even if it was determined you would not know that you were run out of coffee, the sentence “Oh, I could have bought a pack of coffee if I would have known we were run out of it!” is true?

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