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Posted: 08 November 2012 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Cloak - 08 November 2012 04:50 AM
Thevillageatheist - 07 November 2012 03:31 PM

I just really don’t think we should be so easily forgetting some of the more questionable (and sometimes frightening) decisions he has made during his first term.


Care to elaborate?

 

Cap’t Jack

Have you been to the link I posted? I think Chris Hedges is able to put things much more eloquently than I can.

Chris Hedges” list of unfulfilled Obama pledges: “... support the public option in health care, close Guantanamo, raise the minimum wage, regulate Wall Street, support labor unions in their struggles with employers, reform the Patriot Act, negotiate an equitable peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, curb our imperial expansion in the Middle East, stop torture, protect reproductive rights, carry out a comprehensive immigration reform, cut the deficit by half, create 5 million new energy jobs and halt home foreclosures.”

So our choice is to get on Obama’s ass, and Congress’s ass, and the wimpy media’s ass, to try to get some of these things done.  Or we could (and more likely will) do nothing other than complain that we are just sheeple, buffeted by corporate powers that are beyond our ability to withstand, or we will just blithely go about our daily lives ignoring the need for any of those things to be done.

(Although there is an opening, possibly, right now, for Obama to get the Repubs to work with him on immigration reform.  The Repubs are stinging from a defeat and the foreboding of future defeats due to the rising demographic power of hispanics.  If there are any wise Repubs who can hold sway, they would do well to start doing things to try to bring hispanics into their fold.  Positive, practical and meaningful immigration reform, that they can take some credit for, could be a start.)

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Posted: 08 November 2012 09:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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TimB - 08 November 2012 08:57 AM
Cloak - 08 November 2012 04:50 AM
Thevillageatheist - 07 November 2012 03:31 PM

I just really don’t think we should be so easily forgetting some of the more questionable (and sometimes frightening) decisions he has made during his first term.


Care to elaborate?

 

Cap’t Jack

Have you been to the link I posted? I think Chris Hedges is able to put things much more eloquently than I can.

Chris Hedges” list of unfulfilled Obama pledges: “... support the public option in health care, close Guantanamo, raise the minimum wage, regulate Wall Street, support labor unions in their struggles with employers, reform the Patriot Act, negotiate an equitable peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, curb our imperial expansion in the Middle East, stop torture, protect reproductive rights, carry out a comprehensive immigration reform, cut the deficit by half, create 5 million new energy jobs and halt home foreclosures.”

So our choice is to get on Obama’s ass, and Congress’s ass, and the wimpy media’s ass, to try to get some of these things done.  Or we could (and more likely will) do nothing other than complain that we are just sheeple, buffeted by corporate powers that are beyond our ability to withstand, or we will just blithely go about our daily lives ignoring the need for any of those things to be done.

(Although there is an opening, possibly, right now, for Obama to get the Repubs to work with him on immigration reform.  The Repubs are stinging from a defeat and the foreboding of future defeats due to the rising demographic power of hispanics.  If there are any wise Repubs who can hold sway, they would do well to start doing things to try to bring hispanics into their fold.  Positive, practical and meaningful immigration reform, that they can take some credit for, could be a start.)

Look, I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m not one of those people who sit around and complain without doing anything about it. But I’m also not one of those people who are looking at Obama right now through rose-tinted lenses. You can’t blame me for being wary. I’m just saying that many of the things Obama has done makes me wonder if he really is on our side or if he is just another owned automaton like Romney and Bush. If the next 4 years are going in the same direction that Obama took us in his last term, we are in trouble. I’m sorry, but Obama has not been the “good guy” during his last 4 years. There were many times where he was clearly the “bad guy”.

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Posted: 08 November 2012 10:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Cloak - 08 November 2012 09:59 AM
TimB - 08 November 2012 08:57 AM
Cloak - 08 November 2012 04:50 AM
Thevillageatheist - 07 November 2012 03:31 PM

I just really don’t think we should be so easily forgetting some of the more questionable (and sometimes frightening) decisions he has made during his first term.


Care to elaborate?

 

Cap’t Jack

Have you been to the link I posted? I think Chris Hedges is able to put things much more eloquently than I can.

Chris Hedges” list of unfulfilled Obama pledges: “... support the public option in health care, close Guantanamo, raise the minimum wage, regulate Wall Street, support labor unions in their struggles with employers, reform the Patriot Act, negotiate an equitable peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, curb our imperial expansion in the Middle East, stop torture, protect reproductive rights, carry out a comprehensive immigration reform, cut the deficit by half, create 5 million new energy jobs and halt home foreclosures.”

So our choice is to get on Obama’s ass, and Congress’s ass, and the wimpy media’s ass, to try to get some of these things done.  Or we could (and more likely will) do nothing other than complain that we are just sheeple, buffeted by corporate powers that are beyond our ability to withstand, or we will just blithely go about our daily lives ignoring the need for any of those things to be done.

(Although there is an opening, possibly, right now, for Obama to get the Repubs to work with him on immigration reform.  The Repubs are stinging from a defeat and the foreboding of future defeats due to the rising demographic power of hispanics.  If there are any wise Repubs who can hold sway, they would do well to start doing things to try to bring hispanics into their fold.  Positive, practical and meaningful immigration reform, that they can take some credit for, could be a start.)

Look, I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m not one of those people who sit around and complain without doing anything about it. But I’m also not one of those people who are looking at Obama right now through rose-tinted lenses. You can’t blame me for being wary. I’m just saying that many of the things Obama has done makes me wonder if he really is on our side or if he is just another owned automaton like Romney and Bush. If the next 4 years are going in the same direction that Obama took us in his last term, we are in trouble. I’m sorry, but Obama has not been the “good guy” during his last 4 years. There were many times where he was clearly the “bad guy”.

Obama is controlled by his contingencies, just as we all are.  But I trust the contingencies that control Obama, far more than those controlling anyone the Repubs had to offer. 

Our rose colored glasses for Obama are not as opaque as they were 4 years ago.  And that is good. Like I said, we should be on his ass to get things done (because that is a part of the contingencies that may control him).  But a recalcitrant Congress is a more powerful controlling contingency.  And a media that is just a glorified entertainment industry, has pretty much abdicated it’s power to be an effectively productive controlling contingency.

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Posted: 08 November 2012 01:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Please list the contingencies that you think control Obama.

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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

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Posted: 08 November 2012 02:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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I’m so goddammned glad Obama won!
I don’t care if he takes the next 4 years off.  I just want the Obama haters, the racists, the right-wing whack jobs and the morons to suffer for four more years.
Thank frigging’ god!! Amen!!!
It’s gonna be a laugh riot watching these bumbling, constipated, rotund old farts and young shifty eyed boot licking lackeys frantically trying to re-invent the GOP for the next 3-4 years.
Who knew the Republican Party was doomed?  I did.

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Posted: 08 November 2012 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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VYAZMA - 08 November 2012 02:28 PM

I’m so goddammned glad Obama won!
I don’t care if he takes the next 4 years off.  I just want the Obama haters, the racists, the right-wing whack jobs and the morons to suffer for four more years.
Thank frigging’ god!! Amen!!!
It’s gonna be a laugh riot watching these bumbling, constipated, rotund old farts and young shifty eyed boot licking lackeys frantically trying to re-invent the GOP for the next 3-4 years.
Who knew the Republican Party was doomed?  I did.

So in other words, you don’t care who further erodes our civil liberties and serves us up to their corporate masters , as long as those evil Republicans don’t get to do it right?

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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

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Posted: 08 November 2012 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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I expect that the religious conservatives are really upset to see that Hurricane Sandy contributed to Obama’s victory.  If god is on the side of the liberals, they might become P.O.ed enough at him/her/it to become atheists. 

They should have figured that out when Bush Jr stole Fla. in 2000 and God sent four hurricanes grrr  grrr  there to teach them better.

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All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

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Posted: 08 November 2012 03:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Cloak - 08 November 2012 01:17 PM

Please list the contingencies that you think control Obama.

1) His genetic and biological make up
2) His personal history of reinforcement (i.e., everything that he has experienced in his life that has influenced his learning so far)
3) The environmental influences that he experiences at any given moment


This list covers you, and I, and everyone else, as well.  Although they are unique, to some extent, for each one of us.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 08 November 2012 04:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Okay, I just wanted to be clear on what you are saying. So, you’re simply saying that Obama is influenced by many factors, just like we all are (not sure how I’ve said anything that contradicted this). Because of this fact, it is our responsibility to try to be the “strongest influence” for him during his next 4 years?

I’m guessing that the reason Obama ignored us more than half of the time was because we just didn’t try hard enough? And that if we “try harder” this time, he just might listen to us?

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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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Posted: 08 November 2012 04:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Cloak - 08 November 2012 03:10 PM
VYAZMA - 08 November 2012 02:28 PM

I’m so goddammned glad Obama won!
I don’t care if he takes the next 4 years off.  I just want the Obama haters, the racists, the right-wing whack jobs and the morons to suffer for four more years.
Thank frigging’ god!! Amen!!!
It’s gonna be a laugh riot watching these bumbling, constipated, rotund old farts and young shifty eyed boot licking lackeys frantically trying to re-invent the GOP for the next 3-4 years.
Who knew the Republican Party was doomed?  I did.

So in other words, you don’t care who further erodes our civil liberties and serves us up to their corporate masters , as long as those evil Republicans don’t get to do it right?

Right, but all one has to do is identify the corporate masters of each party to see who serves whom and who would erode our civilization the most. If your plarform is civil liberty, you must demonstrate how that system can work. So far the application of unrestricted capitalism leads to financial disaster. OTOH, to keep capitalism in check requires a government oversight service.

The question is which system allows for maximum civil liberty for the greatest numbers within an organizational structure.
“Free Market” or “Regulated Commerce”?  That is the question.

At least we can start with the veracity of the messengers, as well as the message.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/rulings/promise-kept/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/rulings/pants-fire/

[ Edited: 08 November 2012 04:49 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 09 November 2012 12:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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W4U,

Well, its not really a question with me. I believe that purely free markets are inherently cannabalistic (didn’t always believe this, as I used to be a hardcore Liberterian, but I’ve evolved from that to more of a progressive). That’s not my issue. The issue for me is how do we get government and corporate interests out of bed with one another? If you don’t deal with that, then “government oversight” gets castrated, because now you’ve got big businesses and their lawyers helping write some of the same regulations that were meant to keep them in check.

And while I do not support the “lesser of two evils” position, I understand the logical attempt to be practical. Of course I’m going to continue writing, voting, protesting, and attempting to persuade our president, politicians, and those around me, but I’m just a little surprised that some here seem to have easily forgotten some of the things Obama has done while in office. I mean how can we so easily forget about things like the Keystone Pipeline, the NDAA, Bradley Manning, the US government hit list, the constant drone bombing of innocent Iraqi and Afghani citizens (which is how you create more terrorists), the threat of taking us into another senseless war (which is about nothing but power, not defense). That doesn’t even say it all. Just acting like none of these things have happened doesn’t change the fact that it casts a very dark image of Obama, regardless of whether he is wearing his “presidential leather jacket” or not.

[ Edited: 09 November 2012 12:41 AM by Cloak ]
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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

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Posted: 09 November 2012 03:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Cloak - 09 November 2012 12:01 AM

W4U,

Well, its not really a question with me. I believe that purely free markets are inherently cannabalistic (didn’t always believe this, as I used to be a hardcore Liberterian, but I’ve evolved from that to more of a progressive). That’s not my issue. The issue for me is how do we get government and corporate interests out of bed with one another? If you don’t deal with that, then “government oversight” gets castrated, because now you’ve got big businesses and their lawyers helping write some of the same regulations that were meant to keep them in check.

And while I do not support the “lesser of two evils” position, I understand the logical attempt to be practical. Of course I’m going to continue writing, voting, protesting, and attempting to persuade our president, politicians, and those around me, but I’m just a little surprised that some here seem to have easily forgotten some of the things Obama has done while in office. I mean how can we so easily forget about things like the Keystone Pipeline, the NDAA, Bradley Manning, the US government hit list, the constant drone bombing of innocent Iraqi and Afghani citizens (which is how you create more terrorists), the threat of taking us into another senseless war (which is about nothing but power, not defense). That doesn’t even say it all. Just acting like none of these things have happened doesn’t change the fact that it casts a very dark image of Obama, regardless of whether he is wearing his “presidential leather jacket” or not.

I suspect we are in general agreement, but I am more generous in spirit toward Obama. From the promises he has kept (see link) it is clear he has the welfare of the entire nation at heart.
I don’t see how he examples you cited are in any way detrimental to US interests..
a) Keystone pipeline needs more study.
b) NDAA (detention issue) is a law passed by congress. In this case giving the president greater powers (we are still at war).
c) Manning will be prosecuted according to law.
d) The Post reported:

“After the Sep. 11, 2001, attacks, Bush gave the CIA, and later the military, authority to kill U.S. citizens abroad if strong evidence existed that an American was involved in organizing or carrying out terrorist actions against the United States or U.S. interests, military and intelligence officials said. “The evidence has to meet a certain, defined threshold. The person, for example, has to pose ‘a continuing and imminent threat’ to U.S. persons and interests.”

We are at war with al qaeda. We did not start this, but we will finish this.

The age of chivalry has ended and the rules have changed.
This is the dilemma of dealing with terrorist organizations which act independently and always against the best interest of the country they operate in.

The arab countries would easily be able to get rid of them if they made real effort. But until they do, we have declared that when the US has opportunity to kill an important target it will do so with or without permission of that government.

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Posted: 09 November 2012 04:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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VYAZMA - 08 November 2012 02:28 PM

I’m so goddammned glad Obama won!
I don’t care if he takes the next 4 years off.  I just want the Obama haters, the racists, the right-wing whack jobs and the morons to suffer for four more years.
Thank frigging’ god!! Amen!!!
It’s gonna be a laugh riot watching these bumbling, constipated, rotund old farts and young shifty eyed boot licking lackeys frantically trying to re-invent the GOP for the next 3-4 years.
Who knew the Republican Party was doomed?  I did.

At least you’re honest.

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Posted: 09 November 2012 10:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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W4U,

A) Enough sophisticated argumentation/opposition against the Keystone Pipeline has been mounted to justify its cessation, or at least its reexamination. Unfortunately, that doesn’t appear to be happening does it?
B) Of course the NDAA is a law passed by congress giving the president greater powers. Did I say anything denying this? The broadness of the detention clause is the problem. It has been legally challenged in court by a number of prominent activists in the liberal community, and the SCOTUS has upheld that challenge. Despite this, the Obama administration is still filing an appeal.
C) The inhumane detention of Bradley Manning for 10 months was unconstitutional, and literally hundreds of legal scholars have attested to this, which is why the Obama administration had to back down and move Manning. Secondly, the government is just pissed off because the information that was released was something that they were intending to cover up from the public.
D) We aren’t at war with al queda. The White House is. How many US citizens, much less Western citizens do you think were killed by al qaeda since 2001? The public has been crying out for an end to this nonsense for years, yet there are now talks about engaging in another senseless war (Iran). Do you realize how many US soldiers and innocent civilians (including women and children) have died since the start of these wars? Do you think that such a thing actually PREVENTS terrorism? No, it breeds new terrorists. Do you think that the Middle East hates America simply because we are not Muslims?

What about the refusal to deal with rampant crony capitalism? Has anyone on Wall Street been brought to justice under the Obama Administration? Or do you simply attribute this to Republican obstruction?

[ Edited: 09 November 2012 10:48 PM by Cloak ]
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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

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Posted: 12 November 2012 03:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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“Liberals have assured us that after the election they will build a movement to hold the president accountable—although how or when or what this movement will look like they cannot say. They didn’t hold him accountable during his first term. They won’t during his second. They have played their appointed roles in the bankrupt political theater that passes for electoral politics. They have wrung their hands, sung like a Greek chorus about the evils of the perfidious opponent, assured us that there is no other viable option, and now they will exit the stage. They will carp and whine in the wings until they are trotted out again to assume their role in the next political propaganda campaign of disempowerment and fear. They will, in the meantime, become the butt of ridicule and derision by the very politicians they supported.”  ~Chris Hedges~

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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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