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A Demographic Breakdown Of The World Of Religion
Posted: 21 November 2012 07:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Mriana - 21 November 2012 05:04 PM
TimB - 21 November 2012 12:13 PM
Mriana - 21 November 2012 07:57 AM

...  I guess talking about WASPs can lead to skin complexion.  aB9ep.gif  Here’s what I don’t get about religion- IF God made everyone, despite any marks he might give a group of people, then what’s the issue with the different complexions?  I never could figure that one out even when I was a Xian.  It was very easy to figure out that everyone had a different concept of who and what God was just by looking at all the different religions and different Xian sects, but the skin colour issue I never understood.

The obvious answer is that God didn’t make everyone, or if he/she/it did, it utilized the process of natural selection in doing so.  There is some evidence that we are prediposed from birth to recognize and be biased against subtle differences in others. (see “Babies are Bigots” under the Philosophy heading). (Aside: How’s that for marketing?) Skin color is a pretty salient discriminative stimulus for suggesting the possible presence of differences.

Not necessarily true.  Some of us are truly colour blind when it come to other humans.  ie, I thought the oldest Cosby girl (Sandra?) was white for years and could not see her as part of the family.  My mother insisted the girl is black and I insisted she is white.  Turns our we were both right and wrong.  The girl is biracial.  Unless they have an accent, I can’t tell many Latinos apart from any other American.  My older son has some of the same colour blindness and it’s not just biracial people that trip our brains, but other types of complexions throw us too.  You can’t be a bigot if you don’t know the different and actually I never seen a baby take issue with people’s skin colour.

I wasn’t suggesting that babies are automatically born reacting to skin color.  I have no idea if that is the case. My suggestion was that skin color can become an obvious cue for generalizing (or over-generalizing, i.e. poorly discriminating against) subtle differences in others.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 21 November 2012 07:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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George - 21 November 2012 06:23 PM

I think it actually gets better as we become adults. But given the choice, kids will probably prefer to surround themselves with other kids who are their own sex, similar age, and probably same race. And escpecily when they are in a group of others kids, which seems to be the case with my boys. My kids interact without any problem with the children of my close friends, who are a Nigerian and a Pakistani. In school, however, none of them will play with the handful of the non-white kids (our city is 99% white). When I asked them what the problem is, they tell me that nobody wants to play with them, so why should they. I am obviously not going to tell my kids whom they should be friends with, so this is where it starts to get a little complicated.

And it gets even worse when we discuss gays. My boys think that being gay is simply disgusting and they would never play with another boy who is overly feminine. But I know this will pass and although I never try to stay away from discussing any topic with my kids, I do fear the moments when the discussion turms to race or homosexuality.

George, my sons played with kids of any colour when they were younger and now that they are older the lighter one has more white friends than black and my younger son, who is darker, has more black friends, despite the fact they are both 1/2 black and have the same father.  They do not view others as being white or black, unless they have to describe a person to someone.  As far as LGBTs go, meh.  They really don’t care and my older son who’s straight has straight friends as well as LGBT friends.  I truly think it is all in how they are raised.

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Posted: 21 November 2012 07:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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TimB - 21 November 2012 07:45 PM
Mriana - 21 November 2012 05:04 PM
TimB - 21 November 2012 12:13 PM
Mriana - 21 November 2012 07:57 AM

...  I guess talking about WASPs can lead to skin complexion.  aB9ep.gif  Here’s what I don’t get about religion- IF God made everyone, despite any marks he might give a group of people, then what’s the issue with the different complexions?  I never could figure that one out even when I was a Xian.  It was very easy to figure out that everyone had a different concept of who and what God was just by looking at all the different religions and different Xian sects, but the skin colour issue I never understood.

The obvious answer is that God didn’t make everyone, or if he/she/it did, it utilized the process of natural selection in doing so.  There is some evidence that we are prediposed from birth to recognize and be biased against subtle differences in others. (see “Babies are Bigots” under the Philosophy heading). (Aside: How’s that for marketing?) Skin color is a pretty salient discriminative stimulus for suggesting the possible presence of differences.

Not necessarily true.  Some of us are truly colour blind when it come to other humans.  ie, I thought the oldest Cosby girl (Sandra?) was white for years and could not see her as part of the family.  My mother insisted the girl is black and I insisted she is white.  Turns our we were both right and wrong.  The girl is biracial.  Unless they have an accent, I can’t tell many Latinos apart from any other American.  My older son has some of the same colour blindness and it’s not just biracial people that trip our brains, but other types of complexions throw us too.  You can’t be a bigot if you don’t know the different and actually I never seen a baby take issue with people’s skin colour.

I wasn’t suggesting that babies are automatically born reacting to skin color.  I have no idea if that is the case. My suggestion was that skin color can become an obvious cue for generalizing (or over-generalizing, i.e. poorly discriminating against) subtle differences in others.

Well, gender and skin colour have been the two main things used to segregate, dominated, and control, even enslave others.

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Posted: 21 November 2012 08:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Mriana - 21 November 2012 07:56 PM
TimB - 21 November 2012 07:45 PM
Mriana - 21 November 2012 05:04 PM
TimB - 21 November 2012 12:13 PM
Mriana - 21 November 2012 07:57 AM

...  I guess talking about WASPs can lead to skin complexion.  aB9ep.gif  Here’s what I don’t get about religion- IF God made everyone, despite any marks he might give a group of people, then what’s the issue with the different complexions?  I never could figure that one out even when I was a Xian.  It was very easy to figure out that everyone had a different concept of who and what God was just by looking at all the different religions and different Xian sects, but the skin colour issue I never understood.

The obvious answer is that God didn’t make everyone, or if he/she/it did, it utilized the process of natural selection in doing so.  There is some evidence that we are prediposed from birth to recognize and be biased against subtle differences in others. (see “Babies are Bigots” under the Philosophy heading). (Aside: How’s that for marketing?) Skin color is a pretty salient discriminative stimulus for suggesting the possible presence of differences.

Not necessarily true.  Some of us are truly colour blind when it come to other humans.  ie, I thought the oldest Cosby girl (Sandra?) was white for years and could not see her as part of the family.  My mother insisted the girl is black and I insisted she is white.  Turns our we were both right and wrong.  The girl is biracial.  Unless they have an accent, I can’t tell many Latinos apart from any other American.  My older son has some of the same colour blindness and it’s not just biracial people that trip our brains, but other types of complexions throw us too.  You can’t be a bigot if you don’t know the different and actually I never seen a baby take issue with people’s skin colour.

I wasn’t suggesting that babies are automatically born reacting to skin color.  I have no idea if that is the case. My suggestion was that skin color can become an obvious cue for generalizing (or over-generalizing, i.e. poorly discriminating against) subtle differences in others.

Well, gender and skin colour have been the two main things used to segregate, dominated, and control, even enslave others.

True, but you initally seemed perplexed as to why skin color comes to be the seemingly overblown issue that it is. I was offering a possible explanation.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 21 November 2012 08:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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TimB - 21 November 2012 08:25 PM
Mriana - 21 November 2012 07:56 PM
TimB - 21 November 2012 07:45 PM
Mriana - 21 November 2012 05:04 PM
TimB - 21 November 2012 12:13 PM
Mriana - 21 November 2012 07:57 AM

...  I guess talking about WASPs can lead to skin complexion.  aB9ep.gif  Here’s what I don’t get about religion- IF God made everyone, despite any marks he might give a group of people, then what’s the issue with the different complexions?  I never could figure that one out even when I was a Xian.  It was very easy to figure out that everyone had a different concept of who and what God was just by looking at all the different religions and different Xian sects, but the skin colour issue I never understood.

The obvious answer is that God didn’t make everyone, or if he/she/it did, it utilized the process of natural selection in doing so.  There is some evidence that we are prediposed from birth to recognize and be biased against subtle differences in others. (see “Babies are Bigots” under the Philosophy heading). (Aside: How’s that for marketing?) Skin color is a pretty salient discriminative stimulus for suggesting the possible presence of differences.

Not necessarily true.  Some of us are truly colour blind when it come to other humans.  ie, I thought the oldest Cosby girl (Sandra?) was white for years and could not see her as part of the family.  My mother insisted the girl is black and I insisted she is white.  Turns our we were both right and wrong.  The girl is biracial.  Unless they have an accent, I can’t tell many Latinos apart from any other American.  My older son has some of the same colour blindness and it’s not just biracial people that trip our brains, but other types of complexions throw us too.  You can’t be a bigot if you don’t know the different and actually I never seen a baby take issue with people’s skin colour.

I wasn’t suggesting that babies are automatically born reacting to skin color.  I have no idea if that is the case. My suggestion was that skin color can become an obvious cue for generalizing (or over-generalizing, i.e. poorly discriminating against) subtle differences in others.

Well, gender and skin colour have been the two main things used to segregate, dominated, and control, even enslave others.

True, but you initally seemed perplexed as to why skin color comes to be the seemingly overblown issue that it is. I was offering a possible explanation.

That doesn’t mean I’m not perplexed by it all.  It doesn’t make sense to me.

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Posted: 21 November 2012 08:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Mriana - 21 November 2012 08:27 PM
TimB - 21 November 2012 08:25 PM
Mriana - 21 November 2012 07:56 PM
TimB - 21 November 2012 07:45 PM
Mriana - 21 November 2012 05:04 PM
TimB - 21 November 2012 12:13 PM
Mriana - 21 November 2012 07:57 AM

...  I guess talking about WASPs can lead to skin complexion.  aB9ep.gif  Here’s what I don’t get about religion- IF God made everyone, despite any marks he might give a group of people, then what’s the issue with the different complexions?  I never could figure that one out even when I was a Xian.  It was very easy to figure out that everyone had a different concept of who and what God was just by looking at all the different religions and different Xian sects, but the skin colour issue I never understood.

The obvious answer is that God didn’t make everyone, or if he/she/it did, it utilized the process of natural selection in doing so.  There is some evidence that we are prediposed from birth to recognize and be biased against subtle differences in others. (see “Babies are Bigots” under the Philosophy heading). (Aside: How’s that for marketing?) Skin color is a pretty salient discriminative stimulus for suggesting the possible presence of differences.

Not necessarily true.  Some of us are truly colour blind when it come to other humans.  ie, I thought the oldest Cosby girl (Sandra?) was white for years and could not see her as part of the family.  My mother insisted the girl is black and I insisted she is white.  Turns our we were both right and wrong.  The girl is biracial.  Unless they have an accent, I can’t tell many Latinos apart from any other American.  My older son has some of the same colour blindness and it’s not just biracial people that trip our brains, but other types of complexions throw us too.  You can’t be a bigot if you don’t know the different and actually I never seen a baby take issue with people’s skin colour.

I wasn’t suggesting that babies are automatically born reacting to skin color.  I have no idea if that is the case. My suggestion was that skin color can become an obvious cue for generalizing (or over-generalizing, i.e. poorly discriminating against) subtle differences in others.

Well, gender and skin colour have been the two main things used to segregate, dominated, and control, even enslave others.

True, but you initally seemed perplexed as to why skin color comes to be the seemingly overblown issue that it is. I was offering a possible explanation.

That doesn’t mean I’m not perplexed by it all.  It doesn’t make sense to me.

That’s too bad, because despite not understanding it, you fortunately helped provide your boys the experiences they needed to avoid making skin color a big issue.  Most children are not in the same fortuitous circumstance, in that respect.  If we all understood the roots of bigotry better, and what is needed to avoid it, we might actually have a chance to become a post-racial society.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 22 November 2012 05:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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I think I understand very well why people don’t trust other people who don’t look or act like them. I have no idea, though, what I can do so that my kids interact with the non-white kids in their school. Children make their own rules, which in fact are not new rules at all: people stick to their own. Even Mriana’s kids ended up with friends who looked like them. If she did such an amazing job turning her kids blind to racial differences, then why did her lighter son choose white friends and her darker son ended up wirh black friends? Yes, I would be impressed if it were the other way round, but it’s not.

As always, Tim, remember Lysenko failed.

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Posted: 22 November 2012 08:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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TimB - 21 November 2012 08:35 PM

That’s too bad, because despite not understanding it, you fortunately helped provide your boys the experiences they needed to avoid making skin color a big issue.  Most children are not in the same fortuitous circumstance, in that respect.  If we all understood the roots of bigotry better, and what is needed to avoid it, we might actually have a chance to become a post-racial society.

That’s because 1. I didn’t understand it and 2. to me it seems natural to provide such an environment when your family is European-American, African-American, American Indian, and Greek.  I grew up in a home that said, “You are Indian, but when you are outside this house, you are White” and I felt I was denying and denied part of myself.  I never did understand why and yes, one of my favourite songs by Cher is “Half Breed”, even though I am 1/8.  I wasn’t going to do that to my children.  People have thought they are Latino, but they aren’t and some would even favour my older son, who is lighter over my younger son who is darker, which I thought was very stupid.

Roots of bigotry and racism is stupidity and sometimes ignorance.  Children are taught to hate and discouraged to associate with some groups.  IE The KKK raises their children to hate blacks, Jews, etc., not allowing their children to play with other children, unless they look pure white (whatever that is).  This, for most of the adults stupidity and self-imposed ignorance because they have every chance to go out and meet people.  For the children, it is forced ignorance and eventually, as they grow older, if they do not ask themselves (even with parents who are just racist and not of the KKK)  “What makes said person “black as the ace of spades”?  “Why is the neighbourhood going?” (as in “There goes the neighbourhood”)  “How come they call it checker board classrooms?”  “Why does my report card say that the school can’t tell who my teacher will be due to bussing?” (I actually asked my mother this because I read it on my last Kindergarten report card)  “What’s a jiggaboo?”  “Why do you/other people call them that?”  “Why do you say colours (at the time that’s the word my grandparents used) have the “mark of Cain”?  “Why do you call them “colours” when we too have a colour to our skin?”  “Why do you call them black when most are brown?”  “Why are we called white when we are pinkish and sometimes tan in the summer?”  Then the BIG ONE I remember to this day, even though I was 4 or 5, but not blind to the current social situation due to being an only child who watched the news with the adults- my grandmother took me to Walgreens to sit at the lunch counter to watch the soda jerk get me an ice cream soda and I asked, “Grandma, how come there aren’t any black people in here eating too?”  She hushed me very quickly and told me I ask too many questions and oddly enough, this was around 1970 in Alton IL that no black people were around at the lunch counter.

I really pushed the envelop as a child trying to understand the insanity, but all I could do was shake my head and say, “I don’t get it.”  I grew up and started meeting people.  When I met a black man and thought I was in love and had children by him, my relatives called it rebellion.  It wasn’t rebellion.  I truly thought I love him.  Others called me a “n*g**r lover”, I didn’t appreciate it, but I still went home ask my husband why I was called that.  He called me very naive and I guess I was.  After I left my husband, my sons and I were in a “black neighbourhood” in St. Louis. I put it in quotes because some man, who was no white or black (I forget if he was Jewish or Latino) had a business there and there was a very tiny minority living there who were other than black living there.  I had one son by the hand on a wrist leash and another in a stroller.  They are 1/2 black, so I wasn’t worried, but these 4 tall and muscular black men (dressed like gang members) surrounded my babies and me and told me we didn’t belong there.  I could not fathom why, so I turned around, crossed the street, headed back to the shelter (full of black women), crossed the street again, and went back into the shelter to tell what happened.  They called the police, even though I didn’t want any trouble.  A white officer and black officer came to question me as to what happened.  Later I asked one of the staff people at the shelter why these men would say that, because my children are part black.  She said, “You do belong here and they are just stupid.”  They moved us to another shelter that was a majority of black people again, but in a neighbourhood that was more segregated.  My sons and I were treated more fairly, without stupidity.

Even among my American Indian friends we were never treated like that.  We were treated as humans who happen to be culturally mixed, searching, trying to learn who we are.  We were even invited to a Sweat, in part because we, esp myself, wanted to learn.

My sons loved having friends from different backgrounds and when they started dating, they freely chose the girl they wanted to date, not based on skin colour, but by the personality they liked and appreciated.  My older one doesn’t like loud, boisterous, women who verbally let you have it when they are angry and in his opinion, this excludes many black women.  He like women who do not get loud and make a scene when they are angry, but rather talk out things, which in his opinion, includes many white women.  This does not mean that if he finds a quite black woman he won’t date her, but it does mean he likes women who do not make a big scene, all out there, and all when they are angry, which he will admit scares him.  He gets scared when a big beautiful black woman gets angry, loud, boisterous, and makes a scene.  I assume this is probably because I’m more of a quite, more subdue, more gentle, angry person, keeping my anger between those I am angry with and not letting the whole world know and he grew up with this.  Men generally look for a woman that reminds them of their mother in some way and in my older son’s case, it’s how they handle their anger.  Now my younger son dates women with long natural hair, natural looking or no make-up, because he likes hair and the natural look.  My older son like the natural look too, not heavily done make-up and fake hair (there are Black women who are going back to growing their natural hair).  He also dates women who are for the most part quiet and demure.  However, their choices of women is not based on colour, but rather on personality and natural look.  To my older son, to use fake hair and too much make-up is to hide who you really are and he wants to meet the real person.  If the real person is loud and enjoys making a scene, then they aren’t attracted to that.

That is the difference between judging a person on skin colour and judging a person by who they really are or, as I tried to teach them and as MLK Jr dreamed of, “not judging them by their colour of their skin, but by the contents of their hearts.”  This also leads us to religion- there are a lot more superstitious black people than there are white people AND they blindly accept the religion that the slaver owners forced on their ancestors, without question.  Yesteryear it was “Be a good slave and believe in god and ya’ll get your freedom in heaven.”  Now it’s the silly Prosperity Gospel or whatever.  Few people ever question what was past down to them by their ancestors or even why it was perpetuated over the centuries.  Rarely are children told, “Here are all the religions and philosophies around the world.  Go ahead and learn about all of them, ask questions, and then decide for yourself which one is right for you.”  Most children are not allowed to question the religion their parents demand they accept, which is generally based on society and culture, not individual freedom and educated choice.  If you noticed, MLK Jr. exposed himself to Gandhi, who was Hindu, even though he was Xian and stayed an Xian to the day he died.  Coretta, I assume, did the same, because she seemed to share her husband’s views.  IMHO, some of the better Xians and non-believers are those who have researched other religions, philosophies, and learned about people in general, whether they are gay or straight, black or white, American Indian or Indian, Episcopalian, Baptist, or Jewish or whatever, and looked at the person’s heart, without jumping to judgment calls first.

I don’t hate the person who says they are Islamic/Muslim, but I do hate what the extremists do to people and society.  There in lies the difference, IMO, between hating a person for something that is external, not looking at what is in their heart, and hating a religion or action of a group of people.  If that makes any sense at all.

[ Edited: 22 November 2012 08:16 AM by Mriana ]
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“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 22 November 2012 08:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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The Indians are okay. I have never had much of a chance to interact with them, except for last year when we had the “Occupy” thing going on in the park next to my work. I was there every day, talking to people and even allowed to sit around the Indians’ sacred fire. I was lucky, though, I wasn’t one of those dirty menstruating women, who were strictly prohibited anywhere close to their site. Other than that, nice people.

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Posted: 22 November 2012 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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George - 22 November 2012 08:37 AM

The Indians are okay. I have never had much of a chance to interact with them, except for last year when we had the “Occupy” thing going on in the park next to my work. I was there every day, talking to people and even allowed to sit around the Indians’ sacred fire. I was lucky, though, I wasn’t one of those dirty menstruating women, who were strictly prohibited anywhere close to their site. Other than that, nice people.

Um… They were having their “moon”, but I hear you.  That is an archaic tradition that should end, but it’s tradition that they do that.

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Posted: 22 November 2012 09:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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mid atlantic - 14 November 2012 08:22 PM

Non - believers are only a drop in the bucket.

So are geniuses, generally.

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Posted: 22 November 2012 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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TimB - 21 November 2012 07:45 PM
Mriana - 21 November 2012 05:04 PM
TimB - 21 November 2012 12:13 PM
Mriana - 21 November 2012 07:57 AM

...  I guess talking about WASPs can lead to skin complexion.  aB9ep.gif  Here’s what I don’t get about religion- IF God made everyone, despite any marks he might give a group of people, then what’s the issue with the different complexions?  I never could figure that one out even when I was a Xian.  It was very easy to figure out that everyone had a different concept of who and what God was just by looking at all the different religions and different Xian sects, but the skin colour issue I never understood.

The obvious answer is that God didn’t make everyone, or if he/she/it did, it utilized the process of natural selection in doing so.  There is some evidence that we are prediposed from birth to recognize and be biased against subtle differences in others. (see “Babies are Bigots” under the Philosophy heading). (Aside: How’s that for marketing?) Skin color is a pretty salient discriminative stimulus for suggesting the possible presence of differences.

Not necessarily true.  Some of us are truly colour blind when it come to other humans.  ie, I thought the oldest Cosby girl (Sandra?) was white for years and could not see her as part of the family.  My mother insisted the girl is black and I insisted she is white.  Turns our we were both right and wrong.  The girl is biracial.  Unless they have an accent, I can’t tell many Latinos apart from any other American.  My older son has some of the same colour blindness and it’s not just biracial people that trip our brains, but other types of complexions throw us too.  You can’t be a bigot if you don’t know the different and actually I never seen a baby take issue with people’s skin colour.

 

Babies probably don’t but as they grow they mirror the attitudes of their parents and others they come into contact with.  If a parent shows a negative reaction to other skin colors (and cultures) the child wili, too.  In addition, if a child is raised with few children of another race they will notice race more.  The human mind has a tendency to see “the other” in a negative light, all the way to the point where they imbue them with extreme negative characteristics. People often see themselves as the norm and everyone who deviates from it as outside the norm.  If children with racist tendencies are exposed to people who accept all races as equal they will probably give up the prejudices of their parents, though not all do.

[ Edited: 22 November 2012 09:46 AM by Lois ]
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Posted: 22 November 2012 07:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Lois - 22 November 2012 09:01 AM
mid atlantic - 14 November 2012 08:22 PM

Non - believers are only a drop in the bucket.

So are geniuses, generally.

Well, of course we are geniuses. wink

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Posted: 22 November 2012 09:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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George - 22 November 2012 05:51 AM

I think I understand very well why people don’t trust other people who don’t look or act like them. I have no idea, though, what I can do so that my kids interact with the non-white kids in their school. Children make their own rules, which in fact are not new rules at all: people stick to their own. Even Mriana’s kids ended up with friends who looked like them. If she did such an amazing job turning her kids blind to racial differences, then why did her lighter son choose white friends and her darker son ended up wirh black friends? Yes, I would be impressed if it were the other way round, but it’s not.

As always, Tim, remember Lysenko failed.

Is referencing Lysenko some sort of magic word totem for you? Stop it.  It’s silly.  I think that I’m on your side when I suggest that the roots of racism and bigotry are, very likely, predominately, biological. Where I think that I am not on your side is in abdicating all responsibility for children’s development to the caprice of circumstances and their peers.

Mriana’s son’s may have a sexual preference for females who have similar skin color, but that, by itself, does not reach the level of racism or bigotry.  Her sons are not racists or bigots.  Why is that? Perhaps, it had something to do with her consistently not behaving in racist or bigoted ways herself.  Perhaps it had something to do with her trying to teach them to judge others by the content of their character.  Perhaps it had something to do with the many many opportunities that her sons had to be in safe relationships with peers, family members and associates, of a variety of different backgrounds. If Mriana’s sons had been raised by the racist thugs that accosted them that day in St. Louis, I suspect that they would now have a level of racism and bigotry that is quite different than how they have turned out.

Surely, you would admit that the U.S. has smaller ratio, now as compared to 150 years ago, of person’s whose attitudes we would consider to be racist or bigoted.  Do you seriously think that that has happened solely due to natural selection?  I think that it has had to do with the different experiences that our more recent children have had growing up as compared to those who grew up in our society of the mid 19th century.

Denying that we can identify and ever hope to provide the key experiences that can promote children’s development beyond what may be a natural tendency toward racism and bigotry, helps make that a self-fulfilling prophecy.  So stop it.  You may not be a humanist, but you don’t have to be an anti-humanist.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 23 November 2012 06:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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TimB - 20 November 2012 01:53 PM
Dead Monky - 09 November 2012 08:25 AM

It’s not surprising.  Unlike many religions Christianity and Islam come with imperatives to convert.  And they’ve made one hell of a go of it over the years.

Not only the imperative to convert, but a tendency, at times to effectively wipe out other religions.

That is only half of the story. It was the Judeo-Christian tradition and thinking which came up with the Age of Enlightenment, humanism, atheism, secularism, freedom of religion and universal human rights.

It was Christians like Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King who risked their lives and changed history. They created a real movement that made a difference while atheists read books written by Ludwig Feuerbach, Arthur Schopenhauer and Bertrand Russell.

[ Edited: 23 November 2012 06:44 AM by dansmith62 ]
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