Beware: 9/11 thread not about Science/Physics
Posted: 10 November 2012 12:23 PM   [ Ignore ]
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9/11: The Official “Unofficial” Conspiracy Theory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xrRBmanBiU

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Posted: 03 December 2012 07:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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The complexity of persons and government officials and corporations that are suggested to be complicit, leads to the question of how the secrets could be so effectively kept, so that the general public still believes the official version of 9/11. The video suggests that this was accomplished by persons in power controlling the flow of information, by many persons being killed on 9/11 who might have had some knowledge of the motives for the destruction, and by the sheer power of 100’s of billions of dollars that may have secretly been aquired by some, prior to and also as a result of what happened.

If this is true, there still must be 100’s of people, still alive, that had some direct knowledge and/or complicity in the events.  I can imagine that most might have reasons for not coming forward or leaking the truth during their lifetimes, but surely some of those alledged to have been involved have died in the intervening years. Are there no death bed confessions?  Are those still to come? 

Retrospectively putting together connections that could account for motive, actors, and capacity may be compelling in establishing hypotheses, but the hard evidence to support the resulting hypotheses seems to be absent.

But, let’s suspend disbelief for a moment, and consider that the federal government might have collapsed, if the above version were the truth and had been revealed after 9/11.  The trauma to the American psyche, and the subsequent economic downturn would both have likely been even more tremendous than they were.  This could be a potent source for the psychological process of denial. 

Now let’s consider the reverse, which is in line with most of the posters on this forum, that the officiial version of 9/11 is correct and that anything that undermines it is simply the ravings of persons with a conspiratorial bent.  (Okay, but there sure are a lot of them, and I can’t tell that they’re losing steam.)
Does it serve any practical purpose to continue to do investigations?  I don’t know. But, generally speaking, I am for inquiry, even when it is ultimately shown to have been a painfully unproductive endeavor.  Because, sometimes, it’s not (unproductive).

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 03 December 2012 10:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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The complexity of persons and government officials and corporations that are suggested to be complicit, leads to the question of how the secrets could be so effectively kept, so that the general public still believes the official version of 9/11.

The short version is that there is no way any such secrets could possibly be kept.

To assume that they could and to further assume that the government would
a) have both the precience to anticipate world events over a quarter of a century ahead of time and
b) The competance to pull off such a stunt with nobody noticing and blowing the whistle is to assume that the government is way more competant then it actually is.

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Posted: 04 December 2012 11:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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One thing I think most Pro-Official Story folks don’t realize is that there doesn’t necessarily have to be some extremely complex and numerous web of actors who all must keep quite.  The are in fact probably hundreds of rendition bases all over the world, for example, used by the US to perform interrogations, etc. possibly completely illegally.  That doesn’t mean there are 1000’s in the military that need to keep quite to keep these a secret.  The majority just think they’re manning some official base, and have no need-to-know reason for details.

So you could imagine one of the real actors hiring a company to do surveillance on the Towers. The company just thinks they’re hired to do a routine job, maybe even given a cover story them makes them feel patriotic. One maybe that actor who hired them has no real idea of the underlying motives. And so on.  Alot can be accomplished in this fashion especially when the real masterminds have power and access.

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Posted: 04 December 2012 11:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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TimB - 03 December 2012 07:33 PM

The complexity of persons and government officials and corporations that are suggested to be complicit, leads to the question of how the secrets could be so effectively kept, so that the general public still believes the official version of 9/11. The video suggests that this was accomplished by persons in power controlling the flow of information, by many persons being killed on 9/11 who might have had some knowledge of the motives for the destruction, and by the sheer power of 100’s of billions of dollars that may have secretly been aquired by some, prior to and also as a result of what happened.

This brings up the issue of reality versus paradigm of reality.

At this point I do not really care who did it or why.  To me this is a physics problem and human beings cannot change physics.  But since I do not think normal airliners could destroy the buildings and they were obviously destroyed then there had to be more to it.

So this means that my concepts of the government that I had for most of my life before 9/11 were WRONG!

This means there must be a shadow government that is more competent than what I normally regard as the government.  I was never very concerned about the Kennedy assassination since it was just one man being killed.  But 9/11 is orders of magnitude bigger than that. 

But after 11 years the issue is not even the shadow government.  This involves our entire educational system and that of the rest of the world not resolving a grade school physics problem and lots of people who regard themselves as intelligent not solving that problem.  What is so difficult about conducting an experiment to try and duplicate the north tower collapse?

I just posted this video because it is more coherent than most conspiracy crap I have seen. 

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Posted: 04 December 2012 10:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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I just posted this video because it is more coherent than most conspiracy crap I have seen.

More coherant doesn’t mean valid. I can show you a coherant history of a Galaxy Far Far Away, complete with battle tested princesses and farm boys who blow up hundred mile wide battle stations capable of blowing planets, and that’s not real either.

I’ve noticed that you’ve been beating this dead horse for years, with every conspiracy oriented claim you make having been repeatedly falsified, and every claim you’ve made having been shown to be wrong, and repeatedly at that. If others wish to indulge your cognitive dissonance and denialism, that’s fine.

I won’t.

The facts are that a small group of terrorists using nothing more then good old fashioned fieldcraft managed to sucker punch a superpower on a shoestring budget. The achieved complete tactical and strategic surprise and achieved 75% of their objectives.

The fact that people have some sort of problem with this has nothing to do with physics and everything to do with either politics (The original “Truthers” were aimed at the Bush Administration. The Truthers which followed aimed themselves at Obama’s administration) and racism. (The arguement being “There ain’t no way them thar ragheads could pull something like this on us “True Red Blooded Uh-Mare-EEE-Cuns” without somebody in The Guvmint a helpin’ them out.)

Well, they can and they did. Deal with it and get over it.

One thing I think most Pro-Official Story folks don’t realize is that there doesn’t necessarily have to be some extremely complex and numerous web of actors who all must keep quite.

Actually in this case, you do. The construction of the World Trade Centers took place using a cast of thousands, and if somebody had been placing explosives in the buildings structure, these same people would have noticed and squealed. You can’t apply the standards of secrecy appropriate to the military to a structure oriented towards commerce with space which would be rented out to paying tennants.

Further to the point, the geopolitical conditions which made the WTC attractive to terrorists and upon which conspiracy theorists depend and even point to did not exist and would not exist for at least two more decades.

So aside from their excessive complexity, consipiracy theories suffer from yet another fatal flaw, which in this case is geopolitical/historica anachronism.

If anybody here wants to continue down this path, then you’re obviously welcome to as grotesquely overthink the problem as you like so long as the moderators are willing to tolerate it.

I will be wasting no further time with this.

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Posted: 04 December 2012 10:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Oh by the way, see http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/11-09-07/

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Posted: 05 December 2012 07:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 04 December 2012 10:46 PM

I just posted this video because it is more coherent than most conspiracy crap I have seen.

More coherant doesn’t mean valid. I can show you a coherant history of a Galaxy Far Far Away, complete with battle tested princesses and farm boys who blow up hundred mile wide battle stations capable of blowing planets, and that’s not real either.

I’ve noticed that you’ve been beating this dead horse for years, with every conspiracy oriented claim you make having been repeatedly falsified, and every claim you’ve made having been shown to be wrong, and repeatedly at that. If others wish to indulge your cognitive dissonance and denialism, that’s fine.

I said what I meant and meant what I said.  I did not say the video was valid.

I assume people can think for themselves.  However I am often disappointed at how well they can think.

I have not been discussing conspiracies for years because I do not care about them.  However I have noticed a distinct lack of physical models that can collapse completely.  Not even by any major universities.  That would be a falsification but NO ONE HAS DONE IT.

Some people just blather.  Physics is not based on WORDS.

The NIST can’t even tell us the total amount of concrete in the towers.  How can the calculations and simulations of the physics be done without correct data?

The cognitive dissonance does become an interesting issue when most of the human race cannot understand and deal with the 300 year old Newtonian Physics that conforms to the workings of mundane physics.  Skyscrapers are not about Einsteinian and quantum physics.  The funniest part is all of the atheists who portray themselves as intelligent, rational and scientific but then want to criticise other people’s psychology.  Yes, definite cognitive dissonance.

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Posted: 05 December 2012 10:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 04 December 2012 10:46 PM

One thing I think most Pro-Official Story folks don’t realize is that there doesn’t necessarily have to be some extremely complex and numerous web of actors who all must keep quite.

Actually in this case, you do. The construction of the World Trade Centers took place using a cast of thousands, and if somebody had been placing explosives in the buildings structure, these same people would have noticed and squealed. You can’t apply the standards of secrecy appropriate to the military to a structure oriented towards commerce with space which would be rented out to paying tennants.

Further to the point, the geopolitical conditions which made the WTC attractive to terrorists and upon which conspiracy theorists depend and even point to did not exist and would not exist for at least two more decades.

Who said anything about explosives being placed at the time of construction? Or about when the towers became attractive to terrorists?  An inspection team could have been sent in to “inspect” the towers, when they’d actually be placing explosives.  The point is, not one but two skyscrapers made to withstand airline attacks both collapsing perfectly into their own footprints is beyond belief.  Therefore something ELSE must explain it.

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Posted: 05 December 2012 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Yes, definite cognitive dissonance.

Sorry mate, but the only cognitive dissonance is on your part when you persist in claiming none of these things have been demonstrated when in fact they have.

The article I linked to is but one example of that. It was one among several in that issue of Skeptic which dealth with this. If you think it hasn’t been tested, you haven’t been paying attention. i have and it has been.

Deal with it.

Who said anything about explosives being placed at the time of construction?

A substantial number of the conspiracy theorists who claim that 9-11 was all one big government plot.

I’m throught wasting my time with this nonsense.

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Posted: 05 December 2012 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 05 December 2012 11:35 AM

The article I linked to is but one example of that. It was one among several in that issue of Skeptic which dealth with this.

You link to something written by Chris Moron.  I am so impressed.

ROFLMAO

I think a lot of people who refer to themselves as skeptics are not smart enough to figure out what to be skeptical about.

Mohr says this:

“I did say there was up to 180,000,000 pounds of mass coming down at over 100 mph onto each floor, overwhelming any resistance. I stand by that.”

100 mph = 147 ft/sec

147/32 = 4.6 sec

16 * 4.6^2 = 338 feet

338/12 = 28 stories

Mohr does not explain how the mass accelerated to 100 mph.  It takes 4.6 seconds for mass falling through vacuum to reach that speed near the Earth’s surface.  That would mean 338 feet of empty space.  But that is equall to 28 stories of the WTC tower.  So how does any mass fall through 28 stories of the WTC and accelerate to 100 mph?  How could it even get to 50 mph falling through 90 stories?

So Mohr claims things but does not explain them.

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[ Edited: 05 December 2012 02:14 PM by psikeyhackr ]
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Posted: 08 December 2012 03:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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I have pondered this too. I could not find any logical explanations from the officials and their supporters.

TimB - 03 December 2012 07:33 PM

how the secrets could be so effectively kept

I didn’t believe our governments would do this. Did you? Now I understand why people still believe in “God” despite he setup and watched his son “sacrificial”.
We keep hearing one side of the story from the mainstream media. Over the years, we came to dislike the islamics or worst.

 

TimB - 03 December 2012 07:33 PM

Does it serve any practical purpose to continue to do investigations?  I don’t know.
But, generally speaking, I am for inquiry, even when it is ultimately shown to have been a painfully unproductive endeavor. 
Because, sometimes, it’s not (unproductive).

What happened to the 2.3 Trillion dollars that has not been investigated?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXm2yaoWyN8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjcRywb6Zf4

NASA’s FY 2011 budget of $18.4 billion represents about 0.5% of the $3.4 trillion United States federal budget
Project that over a decade roughly $184B. That’s a fraction of 2.3 Trillions and many more Trillions for the wars in the past (Afghan & Iraq) and still more come (Iran & Syria).
Not to mention all of the lives that were lost from all sides and more coming if we continue to blind ourselves from the facts.
We would be terraforming in Mars by now or at least within the next decade. Warp drive could be decades earlier.
They canceled the 12 billions on the Hedron Collider in Texas. That’s smigeon compared to 2.3 Trillions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_Super_Collider


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98106OkVk6I
After the south tower was hit, debris and fireball came off the corner suggest damage is towards one side. Indeed the top portion began falling off the side.
Yet everything disappeared into dust and the collapse took arguably between 10 and 14 seconds. It sure look to me like the thing exploded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGx7aifCZxA
The twin towers were an engineering marvel.

Stop funding these and spend it on our Science & Technology instead of shipping out to the east.
http://thebilzerianreport.com/how-much-does-israel-cost-the-average-american/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98106OkVk6I


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd5Jbmwnwck

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