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Are we atheistic Humanists able to predict the Next religious tradition?
Posted: 06 December 2012 09:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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May I ask a question on the subject of this thread?  Must we assume there WILL be the Next religious tradition?  Will there ever be a time when the next tradition will be free of religion?  Will our humans ever figure out that tradition often brings wars among all other humans.  In reading and listening to the Republican Primary candidates it was pretty obvious that wars are good for workers and jobs were the base for the political plans.


IMO it will when the need for religion eventually fades away but not in our lifetime Sandy. The number of nones are slowly growing in this country as science begins to push back the frontiers of the unknown answering the questions that belief supplied. Also, when people begin to wean themselves off the emotional crutch that religious belief provides and rely only on their family, community and government for support and not pie in the sky. Organized religion has only been around as long as civilization, roughly 10,000 years and has evolved since then to become a traditional institution intertwined with political systems from theocracies to republics so untangling the two won’t be easy. But like slavery, people will have to become active in the struggle and not just assume religion will evolve away. Ex. The CFI suits fighting creationism and demanding such religious symbols such as nativity scenes and marble ten commandments on courthouse lawns. It may sound ludicrous to some and nitpicking but it’s a start and a visible sign that nones object to state sponsored religion. It would also eliminate the perceived need for state sponsored religious wars. No more “holy causes”.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 06 December 2012 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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when the need for religion eventually fades away but not in our lifetime

That would be a positive thing to look forward to
but is it realistic? Sure I trust that maybe 5% or
at most 20% but I hope it is only 5% but these
5% seems to be very strident and them don’t
keep low profile they join conservative political
parties and want to change laws to more conservative
and so on.

I sure can be wrong but I do get the notion
that being religious is a combination of many things.
It could be both a byproduct to things like “agent identifying”
A dualistic views that we are owners of our bodies the Self illusion
and a kind of Essentialism in that things are a certain way
that they have an essence. But it could also be a kind of adaptation
to big groups of living together with peole one don’t know.
That one need to act in another way than if one live with
those one grew up with and foreigners are very seldom
visiting that village?

A kind of strategy for to go along together.

Built in ways to relate to big groups of people.
What they name Group Think and Follow John.
Daddy knows best and so on.

But maybe only few of us has that trait on a level that
require organized religion so future maybe will be
religious and spiritual Nones in that very few are organized
but still vote conservative and are supporting Family values.

Not religion as we know it now but as problematic politically
in that they vote anti-abortion and so on.

I hope I am wrong but I am very pessimistic it looks bad
from my perspective it only change but people are into woo
even if they are not organized. Conspiracies and faith in
hidden structures that rule behind the official picture shown?

That has grown strong and are not religious but problematic
in that they saw distrust in everybody.

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Posted: 06 December 2012 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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Well, whatever you’re calling your private “real history” seems not to be shared by historians of Western Civilization who don’t have your fundamentalist atheist biases that keep you from looking at facts and logically processing them, e.g. your inability to register the gigantic historical impact of Christianity on the development of Western Civilization.

Wrong again. I’m well aware of the historical impact of judiasm, Christainity, and Islam. I’m also well aware of the historical impact of a number of pagan religions and their influance on the first three. (Yahweh is a deity which is stolen from Edom or Midian by the Israelites.)

That you can’t see this reflects the classic fundamentalist mindset that refuses to recognize anything that counters the fundamentalist belief system that can only be held by blind faith, in this case, blind faith that atheism is not an absurd philosophy that continually ignores human advances in science when those advances strike at the atheist mindset, e.g. ignoring 40,000 years of intense human activity centered around spiritual events plus the evolution of human brains to process spiritual phenomena creating people like me who’s spiritual reception capacity isn’t disabled as it seems to be in the atheist brain that is locked into left-brain hemisphere domination that excludes right-brain knowledge of the world. Look, I’ve said this many times now and unless you or other atheists have something to bring to the discussion besides, “no, it isn’t so” or crummy infantile putdowns of theists and theism, then let’s move on, OK?

Well there you go again about atheist mindsets.

There is no such thing as an atheist mindset.

There is no such thing as atheist fundamentalism.

There is no such thing as atheist philosophy.

There is no such thing as atheist doctrine.

Atheism is a LACK of belief in the existance of any deity. That’s it.

Until this core (And non-debatable) fact sinks in to that skull of yours, I don’t see that we have anything more to talk about.

Oh waitaminute….you’re not here to discuss or learn…you’re just here to preach and to troll.

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Posted: 06 December 2012 01:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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That would be a positive thing to look forward to
but is it realistic? Sure I trust that maybe 5% or
at most 20% but I hope it is only 5% but these
5% seems to be very strident and them don’t
keep low profile they join conservative political
parties and want to change laws to more conservative
and so on.

I wasn’t addressing political concerns per se but are you in reference to a world wide political conservatism or just the US? Actually internationally speaking religion is on the wane, especially in Northern Europe but not in Islamic countries. That has to do more with who’s in control, hence a political reason to keep religion alive and flourishing namely to better control the population. It’s a help mate to authoritarianism. That method went by the wayside in Europe when the “eagles” fell (the end of monarchical control). In America, the nones will have a tough fight due to the increase of fundamentalism in the 50’s with the us v. them duel to the death mindset brought on by the Cold War. The older baby boomers are mainly conservative as a result. That’s how we were made to view the World then and we are demographically the largest generation to pass this way. However, the last election saw a marked swing to the middle left on several progressive issues including those that directly effect the youth. More kids are joining the ranks of the agnostics and atheists and will have a profound impact on the poiltical arena in the future. Of course the reverse may happen but I don’t forsee that as church attendance is slipping annually.

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/28/157538238/u-s-still-religious-but-trust-in-institutions-wanes

 

I hope I am wrong but I am very pessimistic it looks bad
from my perspective it only change but people are into woo
even if they are not organized. Conspiracies and faith in
hidden structures that rule behind the official picture shown?

That has grown strong and are not religious but problematic
in that they saw distrust in everybody.


To twist a biblical quote: The woo will always be with us. Conspiracy theories will always appear because they’re exciting and are a vestigial thought pattern of distrust or mistrust of outsiders. As primates we tend to group think and the woo is programmed into us. Depsite knowing the facts, there are those among us who want more than reality.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 07 December 2012 04:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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[quote=“Sandy”]
May I ask a question on the subject of this thread? 
Must we assume there WILL be the Next religious tradition? 
Will there ever be a time when the next tradition will be free of religion?

You have very many that support your take on it. I was one of these too
Like you I trusted that religions would just fade away into history.

And we where right. Surveys do show that the younger generations
do leave the religious their Grandparents loved way back in 1930 up to
1950 or so. A sure trend in the richer countries and the explanation
that some researchers give are that religion is strong in countries
without strong social well fair system and tend to go down the more
one get support from the society.

So sure most people will leave organized religion behind.

But a small rest will come up with something that is not as the old
but are new ways that maybe is Well being and Fitness and Health
and Spa and whatever Yoga and Mindfulness and if one look at
how these things work then it has much of what organized religions
also had. Assertions on how it is. Myths to live by and so on only
less obviously a kind of religion. Almost no supernatural in it but
claims that has not much support from scientific evidence to be true.

So maybe my title is misleading in that it promise to much.

The words religion and faith are too particular and narrow in definition.

Structures is a modern way to refer to similar phenomena.

Crazy examples. There is a kind of ideal that makes
Western Opera sound a certain way. Name it tradition.
Or name it this is what we prefer here in West.

If you go to Turkey and Iran or India or China they sing in other ways
and to them that is their best way to sing. They prefer that tradition.

Religion and faith maybe is similar in the way a Wester Opera lover
see beauty in how it is done and many of these music lover would
not buy as many of the Turkey or Iran or India or Chinese traditional
but would buy them if them sang like Western Opera instead and
such do exist. We got visited by a lady from up north west of China.
Uigur? I don’t remember which country but she had learn to sing
like her Western Opera singer do and was really good and loved here too.

My memory fails me now but I have known her name. Swedish Radio
played her often enough on Classical Music to notice how good she is.

Yes bad example. But religion and faith can express itself in different ways.

What I named as Next Future Faith can be something we fail now to imagine
but humans are very inventive and come up with things we have no idea on.

Was it not a 14 year old boy coming up with the Game Angry Birds?
None of the professionals seems to have had that imagination needed to do it.

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Posted: 07 December 2012 07:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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Maybe we should ask: Can we predict new spiritual movements (defining deep values and meanings by which people live)?

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Posted: 07 December 2012 11:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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dansmith62 - 07 December 2012 07:23 AM

Maybe we should ask: Can we predict new spiritual movements (defining deep values and meanings by which people live)?

That is a very good question too.

Take this one. Mindfulness by Kabat-Zinn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Kabat-Zinn

He teaches mindfulness meditation as a technique to help people cope with stress, anxiety, pain and illness. A stress reduction program created by Kabat-Zinn is offered at medical centers, hospitals, and health maintenance organizations
...
Kabat-Zinn began teaching the Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) at the Stress Reduction Clinic in 1979.

so it took very many years before it became as popular as it is now.
But could anybody predict it to take off the way it did?

I can be wrong but as I vaguely remember he started it to help
cancer patient to cope with the stress of the pain they felt.
Then after succeeding with that he expanded to other areas.

So maybe such factors makes it unpredictable. Maybe not even
Kabat-zinn himself had any idea what would become of it?

Do we have any other example?

My fave is Political Correctness. It has changed name now
or is even totally nameless? But the structure as such do exist
still. When it started it had other names and I don’t trust anybody
really knew how successful it would turn out to be.

My naive take is that it most likely started at the Frankfurter school?
But I know too little. I know it existed around 1965 when I got aware
of it. Almost all my friends where part of it but it had no such name.

We named it Student Revolution because we where Students.

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Posted: 09 December 2012 11:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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There is absolutely no reason that all humans cannot have a background in the importance of individual rights.  This is the one subject that is being fought by Americans who have a religious background.  On another thread here there was a subject on the hisotry of Caesars.  Where are the history books on the many cultures that make up the hisory of our planet?  Christians are only the last 2000 years of our species and the influence on our culture.
It seems as if my original concept of CFI was to help pass the word on the influence or even power of Secular Humanists.  I attended several conferences on this subject and learned that there was a radio show that one could listen to.  This is the Internet Forum that I signed into several years ago and I am delighted to have the ability to read and post here. 

It is safe to say that all here are Secular Humanists and we can share our experiences with others.  I have a question on out reach.  How can we tap into the world or television?  I remember after the Seattle Conference, we had video tape shown on a couple of television news programs but little substance of seriousness was shown.  Do we need a Secular Limbaugh?  Please say no!  We had a very drunk Christopher Hitchens who I thought was fabulous but few could follow his slurred words.  I’ve read many of his books and I knew what he was saying.

When I lived in Arizona, I joined up with Secular Humanism because our leader was Susan Sackett who had been a producer for Gene Roddenberry who was the brains behind Star Trek.  My son did a lot of work for him and I was thrilled to meet Susan in person.  At the time she had a very active S.H. group in Phoenix snd I attended several of her meetings.  In her comments it became apparent that Star Trek had no racial or religious differences and I was eager to find reruns becausre I missed the series on T.V. 

It’s been years since I received any more conferences.  I cannot drive very far due to the drugs I take for pain with my Arthritis.  I’ve moved around alot over the years but have settled in place close to my youngest daughter here in the California Desert.  My bones love the desert heat.  My kids are Humanists but have little time for meetings. 

It was a shame that we had no political preference for President.  I voted for Presidrent Obama because he seemed closer to a Secular Humanist than any others who ran.

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Posted: 09 December 2012 01:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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I think the difference is how strongly motivated the religions are to proslytize and sell their ideas while secular humanists are happy with their beliefs which includes not trying to make others think like them.  They’ll discuss the concepts if asked, but don’t go out of their way to be missionaries. 

I believe religions will very slowly fade away as people see them as irrational, however, I don’t think secular humanists will be an important part of their disappearance.

Occam

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Posted: 09 December 2012 02:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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Thank you Occam for your reply.  I will think about your words.  My frustration is that I’m running out of time and would love to see a reduction in all forms of faith before I split the scene, as we say at the theater.

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Posted: 10 December 2012 01:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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Me too, Sandy, but after we cease to exist, it won’t matter to us.  It’s the following generations’ projects.

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