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Posted: 18 December 2012 05:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 136 ]
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This thread had lost me completely.  I apparently annoyed some here and I’m not clever enough to figure it out.  My family is arriving tomorrow and I will take a break from CFI.  I had somethings to discuss but it will wait. 

There are many things we could do to straighten out this terrible situation with the kind of weapons that should be pulled out of the public.  I hope you all have a nice holiday if only to celebrate something.  I can always celebrate something if only that I actually woke up this morning.

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Posted: 18 December 2012 06:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 137 ]
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Guns need to be drastically pared back. Like I said in another thread, it will take some amount of years, but eventually we will see the troubled individuals simply beating up their mothers or vandalizing a laundromat.(like they used to do)
And when the troubled individuals are reduced to this method of maniacal expression I won’t want the onus then either.
Like I always say:  There’s plenty of good, normal people, who don’t cause disturbances and follow the rules. They are calmly and patiently participating each and every day in society. I want the onus of their safety and life improvement.
Perhaps when we reach out in a society with this perceived Onus, we inadvertantly create more troubled individuals. And more kids lined up for chemical lobotomys at school, etc etc…..
Guns are without a doubt the main contributor of these shooting incidents.(irony—hello!?!)


Ok, lets focus on guns only for the sake of argument. The FBI estimates that over 223 million citizens in the US own at least one gun. That figure is inaccurate because many of them own more than one, so the figure (once again FBI stats) should be expanded to over 300 million or to put it more succinctly, one for every American. Banning assault weapons and multiple round clips are but a step in the right direction. What do we do after that? Here’s the problem, 1. We have a strong lobby with deep pockets that backs the pro gun politicians, 2. We have a pro gun third party (tea baggers) 3. Nobody wants to see the constitution tampered with (sacred document syndrome) 4. Who will search each and every home in the US. Without a warrant (4th Amendment) to find those weapons declared illegal by the Federal Government? 5. Gun manufacturing is a HUGE business here employing thousands, and exports millions of arms and ammunition to countries worldwide, 6. The funding for such a project as policing gun ownership would be astronomical to say the least and would add to the power of the central government which the republicans have been screaming about since Toby was a pup. These are just a few of the problems yet to be faced by Americans who want to bring down the gun culture. Personally, a ban on all non black powder weapons wouldn’t bother me at all. The question is how do we unweave this tradition from our society? We could begin by educating our kids about guns and their potentially deadly purposes throughout our history. FI, our recent ancestors viewed guns primarily as tools, except for military purposes. The good news is that the number of hunters is lower than ever as well as gun sales nationally, even though sqles are up in some states. Real gun control rests on the shoulders of the people who are tired of the mass killings and will force their leaders to act on it. Meantime we’ll all be looking over our shoulders at the mall, movie theaters, schools and even churches. No more children need to die in order to protect the right to own a weapon.

 

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 18 December 2012 08:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 138 ]
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macgyver, as Thevillageatheist points out clearly, the task still reduces to altering people’s mindsets on a large social scale to solve the gun problem. You’re doubting that people will change because you seem to think that people are born with their mindsets. It should also be noted that psychiatric disorders are symptomatic diagnosis of behaviors of people that have physiological or chemical differences. These “disorders” may be emotional or mood altering but it doesn’t imply that they are necessarily intellectually irrational or illogical in their thoughts. They may act awkward or inappropriate to the normal expectations. Your very attitude against them is uninformed and is the very reason why others treat them poorly. It is the treatment they receive from the environment that fears them irrationally causing them to run away that gets them off track. You do not have to have a prior psychosis to develop one either. The solution isn’t more ignorance and hate.

For example, Artis Sylvestor from Survivor Philippines has natural genetic disposition of appearing upset or angry even when he assures us he’s not. He even mentioned on the finale that when he watched the episodes in question, he was surprised to discover that he found he looked that way too. Why is this news to him? Obviously, I believe that it is because we don’t see ourselves from without and judge behaviors stereotypically the same way as we witness reality from others.
  Now because his grin may naturally look like a smirk, others misappropriate his emotions and thus treat him as such. If everyone avoided him based on this mismatch of genetic cultural norms, he could begin to reasonably become confused at others treatment of him. If it was persistent, then he could sincerely develop emotional and psychological issues that lead to real psychiatric disorders.
  There is absolutely nothing that he could do to change this except for being able to try to effectively communicate to others his real intent. On the show’s finale, he was able to. But in the everyday world, if people aren’t even willing to listen let alone try to confront them to tell them what they see, he’s at a total loss. That is why it is up to society as a whole to gain the truth about the causes and learn how to respond appropriately to apparently unusual behaviors or stereotypes. Knowledge is easy to broadcast and can change mindsets.

[spelling udate]

[ Edited: 18 December 2012 11:42 PM by Scott Mayers ]
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Posted: 18 December 2012 10:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 139 ]
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George - 18 December 2012 11:52 AM

I just don’t think this is the time to focus on mental disorders, broken marriages, school/theatre/shopping mall security, etc. The problem here is guns and that is what should be the focus of the discussion.

Yes, of course the problem is guns.

Stephen

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Posted: 18 December 2012 11:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 140 ]
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/health/a-misguided-focus-on-mental-illness-in-gun-control-debate.html?_r=0

But the sad and frightening truth is that the vast majority of homicides are carried out by outwardly normal people in the grip of all too ordinary human aggression to whom we provide nearly unfettered access to deadly force.

Stephen

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Posted: 19 December 2012 01:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 141 ]
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Cap’t Jack,

Australia did it. One should just begin.

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Posted: 19 December 2012 04:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 142 ]
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StephenLawrence - 18 December 2012 10:10 PM
George - 18 December 2012 11:52 AM

I just don’t think this is the time to focus on mental disorders, broken marriages, school/theatre/shopping mall security, etc. The problem here is guns and that is what should be the focus of the discussion.

Yes, of course the problem is guns.

Stephen

I wasn’t sure if this was innuendo aimed at my comment or at George. I guess your next post answers that.

Again, I have already mentioned earlier that I agree with strict gun controls!!! I also agreed with the article in your post. I am not advocating that gun violence isn’t the issue. I am saying that to tackle the problem involves not just guns, but the perpetrator, whether he/she has a clinical psychosis, is an alcoholic, or otherwise. Even without guns, such people will still have these similar problems due not to psychosis, drugs, or… a bad period. I tried to argue above that negligence and ignorance is the initial spark by which socially average people imposed unjustly upon an individual (or group, for that matter). I tried to exemplify that it can lead normally adjusted people to psychosis which ends up destructive. For the most part, these people would likely kill themselves and not affect anyone else. On rarer occasions they take others down with them in frustration as a final, “Fuck You” to the world. Whether it’s suicide by gun, rope, or poison, or whether they also choose to take others down with them, all these cases are similar and just as important to deal with than focusing only on the extreme mass shootings that kill innocent women and children.

Solution to all these problems: 1) Reduce the availability of life-threatening weaponry of all sorts to everyone.

                                      2) Educate society that neglect and ignorance are violent weapons in their own right and so we should be
                                        accountable to their harms.

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Posted: 19 December 2012 04:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 143 ]
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Cap’t Jack,

Australia did it. One should just begin.

gdB, this ain’t Australia, trust me, we have a long way to go. And I agree we need to begin to emulate them in the near future. Even though we and they have a similar background, ours developed an organization to promote and protect gun ownership as well as to profit from it whereas theirs didn’t. Remember also that their parliamentary system is less cumbersome than ours, e.g. They have a 150 member lower house whereas we have 435 and their legislature is much more tied into the other two branches than ours so laws may be passed quickly. In short it’s much easier to change the their laws by effectively controlling the flow of weapons. Stats show that gun crimes have been drastically reduced there, but with our cumbersome process including powerful committees and the ultimate power of the House Speaker to kill a bill before it even reaches a committee, our chances of passing gun control legislation are pretty slim unless an anti-gun lobby is formed to counter balance the pro-gun groups. there is a solution out there, it’s just going to take time to find it.

 

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 19 December 2012 04:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 144 ]
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By the way, I think I may have seen a criminal on the bus Friday before he tried to mug someone and shoot him. He was a tall kid who kept hiding his whole face with a scarf to avoid the cameras on the bus. He was acting really edgy and shifted from sitting at the front of the bus to the back. It may have been just coincidence that his description matched him similarly. I didn’t hear of any news of any crime prior to Friday.

Anyways, I called the police after the news report requested assistance, told the officer what I saw, and then she said that they don’t deal with tips at the police office! She told me to call Crime Stoppers!?

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Posted: 19 December 2012 04:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 145 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 19 December 2012 04:09 AM

...
there is a solution out there, it’s just going to take time to find it.

Cap’t Jack

Obama seemed pretty wound up and ready of mind on something big. I wonder what’s coming up?

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Posted: 19 December 2012 10:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 146 ]
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Scott Mayers - 18 December 2012 08:40 PM

macgyver, as Thevillageatheist points out clearly, the task still reduces to altering people’s mindsets on a large social scale to solve the gun problem. You’re doubting that people will change because you seem to think that people are born with their mindsets. It should also be noted that psychiatric disorders are symptomatic diagnosis of behaviors of people that have physiological or chemical differences. These “disorders” may be emotional or mood altering but it doesn’t imply that they are necessarily intellectually irrational or illogical in their thoughts. They may act awkward or inappropriate to the normal expectations. Your very attitude against them is uninformed and is the very reason why others treat them poorly. It is the treatment they receive from the environment that fears them irrationally causing them to run away that gets them off track. You do not have to have a prior psychosis to develop one either. The solution isn’t more ignorance and hate.

I am not uninformed. I spent several months on psychiatric rotations in med school and as a primary care physician i deal with the fall out of social awkwardness not uncommonly among my patients. I have a pretty good idea of whats involved here. Your suggestion that all psychiatric conditions are somehow environmentally induced is naive. Its far more complex than that.

We all come into this world with difference inherent abilities. Socialization requires the use of a very complex skill set. Much of this is learned behavior but you need to have the right tools at birth in order to learn these skills. Some individuals for example do not have the capacity to read facial expression correctly and without that ability they may misinterpret intentions and act inappropriately in response to others. Some individuals obviously have a lower level of intelligence and may lack the capacity to interpret signal even if they are able to perceive them. Some people get depressed or give up easily and may be less willing to try to learn the things they need to so they can improve their socialization skills even if someone is willing to teach them. Others may have the sort of personality that allows them to grab the bull by the horns as it were and turn things around.

So we enter this world with different abilities and those abilities determine how well we can learn the skill set necessary to socialize but it gets more complex than that. Our interactions with the world around us actually change our brain. Some of those changes are plastic and reversible but others, especially over time, may become permanent. They become a real part of who we are.

This can then become a bit of a spiral downward. A person may have certain deficits at birth that make their social interactions awkward. Society then reacts to that or the individual simply senses he is different and reacts in his own way. This then leads to isolation which leads to further changes which may make the individual more isolated and the whole thing may spiral downward from there.

I dont have an “attitude against ” people who are socially awkward as you stated. I am simply trying to make the point that you can not fix this problem by asking everyone to be nice to them. I agree it would be a good idea for society to be more inclusive and tolerant and anything we can do to foster that is a positive thing but its not going to make as big a difference as you would like to believe because the isolation these individuals feel is partly due to an incurable genetic disorder, partly due to environmental issues ( dysfunctional family life or bullying at school for example) and partly self induced.

The other point I was trying to make is that I am very skeptical that any amount of education ( ie. trying to teach kids not to bully etc) is going to change society all that much. You will always have insecure individuals who will target a socially awkward person to make themselves feel better. You will always have bullies who will corner a kid behind the school or on the way home when there is no teacher or adult to intervene. Again, you can make these efforts and they will help. I’m not saying we shouldn’t do that. I do think you are being overly optimistic about the results we will get from those efforts though. They will not in themselves solve this problem because it is much more complex than you are implying. We need to take multiple approaches to address the many different paths that lead to angry young men shooting people. There is no silver bullet to kill the monster that leads to these mass shootings.

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Posted: 19 December 2012 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 147 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 18 December 2012 06:46 PM

Guns need to be drastically pared back. Like I said in another thread, it will take some amount of years, but eventually we will see the troubled individuals simply beating up their mothers or vandalizing a laundromat.(like they used to do)
And when the troubled individuals are reduced to this method of maniacal expression I won’t want the onus then either.
Like I always say:  There’s plenty of good, normal people, who don’t cause disturbances and follow the rules. They are calmly and patiently participating each and every day in society. I want the onus of their safety and life improvement.
Perhaps when we reach out in a society with this perceived Onus, we inadvertantly create more troubled individuals. And more kids lined up for chemical lobotomys at school, etc etc…..
Guns are without a doubt the main contributor of these shooting incidents.(irony—hello!?!)


Ok, lets focus on guns only for the sake of argument. The FBI estimates that over 223 million citizens in the US own at least one gun. That figure is inaccurate because many of them own more than one, so the figure (once again FBI stats) should be expanded to over 300 million or to put it more succinctly, one for every American. Banning assault weapons and multiple round clips are but a step in the right direction. What do we do after that? Here’s the problem, 1. We have a strong lobby with deep pockets that backs the pro gun politicians, 2. We have a pro gun third party (tea baggers) 3. Nobody wants to see the constitution tampered with (sacred document syndrome) 4. Who will search each and every home in the US. Without a warrant (4th Amendment) to find those weapons declared illegal by the Federal Government? 5. Gun manufacturing is a HUGE business here employing thousands, and exports millions of arms and ammunition to countries worldwide, 6. The funding for such a project as policing gun ownership would be astronomical to say the least and would add to the power of the central government which the republicans have been screaming about since Toby was a pup. These are just a few of the problems yet to be faced by Americans who want to bring down the gun culture. Personally, a ban on all non black powder weapons wouldn’t bother me at all. The question is how do we unweave this tradition from our society? We could begin by educating our kids about guns and their potentially deadly purposes throughout our history. FI, our recent ancestors viewed guns primarily as tools, except for military purposes. The good news is that the number of hunters is lower than ever as well as gun sales nationally, even though sqles are up in some states. Real gun control rests on the shoulders of the people who are tired of the mass killings and will force their leaders to act on it. Meantime we’ll all be looking over our shoulders at the mall, movie theaters, schools and even churches. No more children need to die in order to protect the right to own a weapon.

 

Cap’t Jack

VA, I don’t understand the focal point of your response here.
If your suggesting that gun control is a monumental task not worth undertaking I disagree.  It will take a long time, but a brisk beginning initiative for starters I think, will produce appreciable results.
By a brisk beginning initiative I mean the immediate ban on the sale, both public and private, commercial and wholesale of assault weapons.
Assault weapons are easily re-defined as any gun that shoots larger than .22 long rifle cartridges semi-automatically(or fully automatically) and can be fitted with magazines that hold 10 or more rounds.
I see in the news, and politicians statements regarding current laws and perceptions that focus is geared towards superflous qualifiers regarding “assault weapons”.
This really ticks me off.
Flash Suppressors, folding or collapsible stocks, pistol grips, etc have nothing to do with a weapons ability to fire large amounts of bullets rapidly.
For example:  The weapon used at Newtown-an AR-15 based platform(M-16) is usually regarded as an assult rifle. After all, it has been the main infantry service rifle for the US military since Vietnam. Ok good.
Now, the Ruger Mini-14 which has been around for almost as long is a weapon marketed by Ruger for varmint hunting, or general target plinking etc.
Although this weapon has a completely different operating system( and doesn’t resemble the AR-15 in looks or style.) it does the exact same thing as the civilian semi-automatic AR-15!
It is compact(a carbine) can take magazines that hold at least 30 rounds, is the same exact caliber as the M-16(the highly damaging .223/5.56 round) and fires bullets down range as fast as one can pull the trigger! More than one per second!
Thanks to NRA lobbyists etc, many guns like this stay off of “Assault Weapons” bans or regulations!! It’s the biggest joke. To say nothing of the many loopholes that burdened the previous ban.
I think you know most of this already VA, but others need to get a better understanding of weapons etc. if they are going to comprehensively regulate them.
It’s like the EPA not being able to properly identify types of pollution.

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Posted: 19 December 2012 01:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 148 ]
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Thanks to NRA lobbyists etc, many guns like this stay off of “Assault Weapons” bans or regulations!! It’s the biggest joke. To say nothing of the many loopholes that burdened the previous ban.
I think you know most of this already VA, but others need to get a better understanding of weapons etc. if they are going to comprehensively regulate them.
It’s like the EPA not being able to properly identify types of pollution.

I do and BTW this very issue was debated last night on Ed Shultz’s show . he interviewed a Republican congressman and asked him to define “assault rifle” and how the AR 15 was left out of this classification whereupon the rep. Stated that you coudn’t just pull the trigger and fire a steady stream of bullets. The shooter had to pull the trigger in order to fire each round, therefore it was NOT an assault weapon! This is the sort of misinformation that will lead to an uphill battle in gun regulation. I completely agree that the American public needs to be aware of the capabilities of these weapons and that a gunsmith can easily convert a semi auto to full in a matter of minutes. Also, my post was meant to show how difficult it would be to completely outlaw guns in this country. In that respect I am very pessimistic. What will happen, IMO is that assault weapons will be banned as well as clips baring more than 10 rounds and the regulations for ownership will be more restrictive ( it would help to actually enforce those laws already on the books as well) but beyond that it will be up to the people to force legislation. The good news is that even NRA members are speaking up in a positive way about the ban, thus choosing to buck their own organization’s stance. what will tell the tale is when this horrible incident fades from media attention. Will the reps kowtow again to then NRA or grow a backbone and take a stand against them and their lobby money. There are no quick fixes to this problem and the NRA isn’t disbanding anytime soon. What we can do is chip away at it by first stopping the sale of any automatic weapon. Hunters don’t need Uzis.

 

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 19 December 2012 06:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 149 ]
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mid atlantic - 10 December 2012 04:37 AM

The Americans who are mostly killed by firearms are asking for it with their behavior; our society is not missing anything by them dying, I can assure you of that.

  So, according to your reasoning, Mid Atlantic, the 20 six year olds who were killed by firearms were asking for it with their behavior????  snake

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Posted: 19 December 2012 09:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 150 ]
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Occam. - 19 December 2012 06:28 PM
mid atlantic - 10 December 2012 04:37 AM

The Americans who are mostly killed by firearms are asking for it with their behavior; our society is not missing anything by them dying, I can assure you of that.

  So, according to your reasoning, Mid Atlantic, the 20 six year olds who were killed by firearms were asking for it with their behavior????  snake

Occam

Oh yes, this is what happens when they talk back during class.

The country has returned to law and order!  smirk

[ Edited: 19 December 2012 09:29 PM by mid atlantic ]
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