What we have here is the typical internet discussion.  We know and agree that religion is doing harm to our culture, our family units and even our government.  How many more years do we agree that much needs to be done to fix the growing problems.  In 1994 I saw the internet and the power of communication it gave all of us.  We all linked up based on our interest in politics, religion and culture.  We spent 20 years discussing what interests us and then that was it. 

I question what happened to us causing us to stagnate and simply make friends or even enemies depending on our points of view.  That meeting I had so many years ago with Eddie Tabash opened the door for me to go searching for others who understood the secular life.  He told me about CFI and I was thrilled.  I have no background in the level of discussion I found here and all I had in my favor were the books I had read and continue to read. 

My problem is that I’m running out of time.  I sometimes feel like a big bird trying to break out of my shell and get to work trying to plant some seeds.  My own kids know right from wrong and have no fear of faith or the hereafter.  Why can’t we run some Secular candidates that will keep us free from religion?  The pattern is to bring some new people here and then they leave without opening some doors.  My daughter tried to explain the limits of the internet and she uses it to help her write some very funny stories about obvious things.  Maybe I don’t drink enough.

Sandy Price - 04 January 2013 10:09 AM

What we have here is the typical internet discussion.  We know and agree that religion is doing harm to our culture, our family units and even our government.  How many more years do we agree that much needs to be done to fix the growing problems.  In 1994 I saw the internet and the power of communication it gave all of us.  We all linked up based on our interest in politics, religion and culture.  We spent 20 years discussing what interests us and then that was it. 

I question what happened to us causing us to stagnate and simply make friends or even enemies depending on our points of view.  That meeting I had so many years ago with Eddie Tabash opened the door for me to go searching for others who understood the secular life.  He told me about CFI and I was thrilled.  I have no background in the level of discussion I found here and all I had in my favor were the books I had read and continue to read. 

My problem is that I’m running out of time.  I sometimes feel like a big bird trying to break out of my shell and get to work trying to plant some seeds.  My own kids know right from wrong and have no fear of faith or the hereafter.  Why can’t we run some Secular candidates that will keep us free from religion?  The pattern is to bring some new people here and then they leave without opening some doors.  My daughter tried to explain the limits of the internet and she uses it to help her write some very funny stories about obvious things.  Maybe I don’t drink enough.

We may not see the changes that we want in our lifetime, however, when they do happen, you can be comforted in the fact that you did indeed at least help plant those seeds. We can run secular candidates, but will they win enough votes? Is the time right? Are the people ready? Perhaps what we are doing at the moment, that is, educating the public on secular life, on the problems of religion and false beliefs, etc… is what needs to be done first. That way, when the time is ripe, when the people are ready, can understand and can see clearly, they will vote for a secular candidate. Of course the candidate simply being secular isn’t enough, the candidate should also be qualified in all the necessary aspects of the position. It seems that in politics, people don’t vote for the best man or woman anyways, they vote for the lesser evil. Which says a lot about the current state of affairs in politics.

Perhaps if we are not doing enough at the moment in these regards, it is that we preach to the choir too much, and not to the participants, to the dare I say even, victims of religion. Certainly we try every so often, and some of us more than others, so much that we know every rebuttal, logical fallacy, and excuse they may have for their beliefs. If there is room for improvement and there is, I think it is also in the method and tone that we communicate to them. We need to appeal to them, and plant the seeds of reason in them ever so gently so that they believe they’ve come to the realization themselves that they discovered the truth themselves, rather than it being shown to them that they have been wrong, that they are ignorant, etc… Because what they are, are victims, like us all.

Thank you for the meaningful reply.  All during the years that I worked for my Congressional candidates we did have the separation of church and state and the candidates were not allowed to discuss any faction of faith.  Pat Robertson opened his university to the House members for further training and he lost his tax deductions.  He sat down with other Christian leaders and presented the Governor of Texas a plan.  Gov. George W. Bush ran for President on a series of actions that became the GOP Platform with a series of plans to send federal dollars to the Churches and it passed automatically cancelling the Separation of Church and State. 

From there the churches ran not only the elections but a new interpretation of the Bill of Rights.  It was the repetition of the Inquisitions that redefined religion in Europe.  This single action took our government back to the 16th Century. 

Returning the separation of the church and state does not demand a single church to be closed.  It would seem that American parents cannot teach right from wrong without the influence of God to direct them.  This is the saddest part of this situation.  Putting the parents in charge of this part of education strengthens the family unit. 

When the government is put in charge of directing the kids to know right from wrong, it gives the parents the respect they need to answer questions.  Now the government is in charge of writing prohibitions into the laws of the children.  We now have the Bill of Laws overshadowing the individual rights.  This cancels all the good and decent parts of being Americans.

theBdude - 13 December 2012 10:09 PM

Why, then, do people hold onto their beliefs so tightly that their ideas are unchangeable even through logical debate? Or if you disagree with the unbiased approach to religion and atheism, please tell me why.

I think it is illogical to expect people in general to treat such personal matters without bias and passion when the vast majority of people have not reached a place in their own psychological development to be capable of looking beyond what they are told to believe, say, and do.

After all,  for most people, these concepts envelope their entire perception of reality.  It is the foundation by which everything else rests.  It’s like the old creation stories of various cultures, where the Earth rests on the back of an elephant, a turtle, or is a part of some tree.  If you start shaking the roots of that tree, their world starts falling apart.

Considering this, the only logical response to a debate about religion (for most people) is fight or flight.

I say this as someone who chose to walk away from my own religion.  Undoing religious programming is far from easy.  If you truly once believed you would be damned to walk away, and find yourself one day choosing to walk away…  then you are confronting and challenging everything you once believed for however long you believed it.

Sandy Price - 04 January 2013 05:30 AM

Obviously, we have a job to do with the next generation of leaders in America and elsewhere.  Introduce with art and music will be the best way but only with careful use of our language.  We are not declaring a war, we are introducing freedom to the next generation.  Too many want to use their fists over reason and love to catch the attention of the children.  It is religion that is taught with the fear of hell and damnation.  We can stamp this out.

I am curious, though not hopeful for a response seeing as how this thread has been nearly dead for almost a month. Sandy, you state “We can stamp this out.” What precisely are you referring to here? What is it that you want to stamp out?

Sandy, you state “We can stamp this out.” What precisely are you referring to here? What is it that you want to stamp out?

I think what she’s referring to is the “You Must Believe What We Believe Or You Will Go To Burn Forever In Hell” sort of fearmongering which starts from childhood and is constantly re-inforced throughout a person’s life to keep them from asking too many hard questions.