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My CFI dilema
Posted: 13 June 2013 08:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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Lois, here is some more basic information about the UCC that could be of help in our having an open and honest dialogue: 
http://www.united-church.ca/about

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Posted: 14 June 2013 08:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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Hello RevLGKing,
I am a new member to the Forum, no spring chicken myself. I like the site because it is more of a think tank than a steam release forum, and there are some really, really smart people on this forum I think you will have to agree.

But they did not go thru or have experienced the fears you have, WWII, nuclear scare, and the depressions. Religion was there to help, and help it did.

This generation got a taste of the bankers and didn’t like it one bit. I think the idea to hang a few of the bankers would be a common ground for both atheists and the believers.

A lot of what they call scientific thinking is what you probably call common sense.
We had forks in the road; they have a spider web of directions to go. 

This last week and the next couple weeks I will be busy helping a preacher friend get his new church ready to open. We fought like cats and dogs about religion for several years and now there’s nothing left to fight about, I know his views and he knows mine. And as you know blind faith is powerful. 

Churches were the only melting pot for the local communities, today there is football and other sports, and even the internet.

Our founding fathers had it right when the separated church and state.  As you know religion by itself is good for the soul. Its not religion causing the problems here, it is power of organizing large groups of people to back movements.

We have to thank the Christian Movement for organized crime, hundreds of thousands of broken families, and the highest incarceration rate in the world.

And it didn’t have to be this way. I mean what was, or where was the thinking?

The churches don’t seem to have the future of the people and country at hart and they work so hard, and I mean hard at trying to do well.  And at the ground level on one to one help they are wonderful.

But when it comes to the Movements they are dangerous to the future of this country.

There seems to be a belief by the Christians that it was the Christians that made this country great.
And there is a belief by the Christians that if Christianity goes away the country will fall apart and become a living hell.

Of course they couldn’t be more wrong in both thinking’s. And why do they think that way? I think they are scared.

It looks to me like your Progressive Christianity is a step in the right direction. It would be better if it was Progressive Religion. You put yourself in a box with Christianity.

Take care and hope to hear more from you.
Mike

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Posted: 14 June 2013 10:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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RevLGKing, I skimmed the eight points:
http://progressivechristianity.ca/prc/?page_id=6

2. engage in a search that has roots in our Christian heritage and traditions;

Why have your roots in Christian heritage and traditions if you acknowledge that these are human contrivances just like other religions?

I suspect that many people raised as Christians decide that Christianity is nonsense, but they are very uncomfortable thinking of themselves as non-Christians.  So the United Church supplies a fig leaf?

(Sorry if that sounds rude.)

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Posted: 14 June 2013 11:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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Since atheism is the opposite of religious thinking, it’s impossible to avoid the charge. But most atheists don’t waste their time denigrating religion unless there is a specific reason for it, and specific reasons abound. To claim that atheists are anti-religion is no different from claiming that theists are anti-atheism. Are you admitting to that charge? If so, you’re definitely in the wrong group. This group is for people who can take it as well as dish it out.  Crybabies are not welcome.

If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

Lois

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Posted: 14 June 2013 04:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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Lois, I don’t understand your last post, or who it was addressed to. But my understanding is that this forum is, at least, open to anyone who is interested in fostering a secular society based on science, reason, freedom of inquiry, and humanist values.  And in practice, it seems to be open to persons who do not have interest in all of those components.

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“Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb… We are bound to others, past and present… And by each crime and every kindness… We birth our future.”  Sonmi, 2144.

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Posted: 14 June 2013 06:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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RevLGKing - 14 April 2013 08:08 PM
Lois - 14 April 2013 05:19 PM
RationalBeliever? - 20 December 2012 08:44 PM

  Are there any others like me here, or are you all embittered atheists?  am I in the wrong place?

If you understood anything about the free thought community you would not call the members embittered atheists. 

With that kind of misunderstanding,  you ARE in the wrong place.  With your attitudes you don’t belong on a free thought blog.  You are obviously not looking to understand how we think or why. 

You are looking for ways to denigrate our position as long as it is atheistic.  Just those two words “embittered atheists” shows your bias.  There are plenty of websites and blogs designed just for people like you who have a skewed attitude toward freethinkers. 

You will surely feel more comfortable in a group that doesn’t challenge your preconceived ideas and who, like you, calls freethinkers “embittered atheists.” ...

Lois, is it okay for me to assume that the above post was not addressed to me, agreed? Over the years, I have had many pleasant dialogues with a number of open-minded atheists.

Good heavens, no. It was not addressed to you.  It was addressed to Rational Believer who started this thread.  I have always enjoyed reading what you have to say and you have always come across as rational thinker. Sorry if it’s taken me a while to respond to this. I seem to have overlooked the thread.

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Posted: 14 June 2013 06:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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TimB - 14 June 2013 04:22 PM

Lois, I don’t understand your last post, or who it was addressed to. But my understanding is that this forum is, at least, open to anyone who is interested in fostering a secular society based on science, reason, freedom of inquiry, and humanist values.  And in practice, it seems to be open to persons who do not have interest in all of those components.


I have no problem having believers on CFI. I am surrounded by believers, in my family, in my neighborhood, in my community, in the organizations I am a member of. I get along with all reasonable people, including those I disagree with on philosophical grounds.  Four of my dear friends are clergy—a Methodist, an Episcopalian, a Presbyterian and a Rabbi. What ticked me off about Rational Believer was his attack on atheists.  He comes into a discussion group where he must know most people are atheists, and then attacks them for defending their atheism against attacks from believers, callng us “embittered atheists”. That’s a low blow and I intend to defend myself and other atheists against low blows. If he wants to be treated with respect he should start off by respecting the people who are members of the group instead of attacking them and making assumptions about them. If he wanted to join the group and discuss topics rationally, he wouldn’t have started out by making insulting remarks about atheists. Since he did, it does not make me feel particularly welcoming toward him. If others wish to respond to him with open arms despite his insults, that’s fine with me, but I will express my opinion.

Lois

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Posted: 14 June 2013 06:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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I agree, Lois, but as a moderator I’m stuck with just ignoring him.  LOL

Occam

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Posted: 14 June 2013 06:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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RevLGKing - 13 June 2013 08:11 PM

Lois, here is some more basic information about the UCC that could be of help in our having an open and honest dialogue: 
http://www.united-church.ca/about


Thanks, but I wonder.  Did you think I was not aware of the beliefs of your church and others?  I was raised a Catholic by a father who was devout and very invested in the church.  Half of my family are/were Catholics and half Protestants of various denominations. My husband’s family are/were Anglicans, with one a minister, a missionary in Madagascar, and one a nun.  I am quite well versed in both Catholic and Protestant belief systems.  I have no trouble with reasonable believers.  I don’t criticize their beliefs and I try to understand where they’re coming from, but should anyone criticize my lack of belief in an insulting way, I feel justified in putting them in their place.

Lois

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Posted: 14 June 2013 07:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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Occam. - 14 June 2013 06:49 PM

I agree, Lois, but as a moderator I’m stuck with just ignoring him.  LOL

Occam

I know, Occam, you have a fine line to walk and you’re doing a good job. 

Lois

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Posted: 14 June 2013 08:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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Lois - 14 June 2013 06:45 PM
TimB - 14 June 2013 04:22 PM

Lois, I don’t understand your last post, or who it was addressed to. But my understanding is that this forum is, at least, open to anyone who is interested in fostering a secular society based on science, reason, freedom of inquiry, and humanist values.  And in practice, it seems to be open to persons who do not have interest in all of those components.


I have no problem having believers on CFI. I am surrounded by believers, in my family, in my neighborhood, in my community, in the organizations I am a member of. I get along with all reasonable people, including those I disagree with on philosophical grounds.  Four of my dear friends are clergy—a Methodist, an Episcopalian, a Presbyterian and a Rabbi. What ticked me off about Rational Believer was his attack on atheists.  He comes into a discussion group where he must know most people are atheists, and then attacks them for defending their atheism against attacks from believers, callng us “embittered atheists”. That’s a low blow and I intend to defend myself and other atheists against low blows. If he wants to be treated with respect he should start off by respecting the people who are members of the group instead of attacking them and making assumptions about them. If he wanted to join the group and discuss topics rationally, he wouldn’t have started out by making insulting remarks about atheists. Since he did, it does not make me feel particularly welcoming toward him. If others wish to respond to him with open arms despite his insults, that’s fine with me, but I will express my opinion.

Lois

Ok.  But I think that rationalbeliever hasn’t posted since before last Christmas, and was only active on the forum for a couple of weeks.  Anyway, thanks for clearing up who you were addressing.

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Posted: 15 June 2013 07:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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TimB - 14 June 2013 08:34 PM
Lois - 14 June 2013 06:45 PM
TimB - 14 June 2013 04:22 PM

Lois, I don’t understand your last post, or who it was addressed to. But my understanding is that this forum is, at least, open to anyone who is interested in fostering a secular society based on science, reason, freedom of inquiry, and humanist values.  And in practice, it seems to be open to persons who do not have interest in all of those components.


I have no problem having believers on CFI. I am surrounded by believers, in my family, in my neighborhood, in my community, in the organizations I am a member of. I get along with all reasonable people, including those I disagree with on philosophical grounds.  Four of my dear friends are clergy—a Methodist, an Episcopalian, a Presbyterian and a Rabbi. What ticked me off about Rational Believer was his attack on atheists.  He comes into a discussion group where he must know most people are atheists, and then attacks them for defending their atheism against attacks from believers, callng us “embittered atheists”. That’s a low blow and I intend to defend myself and other atheists against low blows. If he wants to be treated with respect he should start off by respecting the people who are members of the group instead of attacking them and making assumptions about them. If he wanted to join the group and discuss topics rationally, he wouldn’t have started out by making insulting remarks about atheists. Since he did, it does not make me feel particularly welcoming toward him. If others wish to respond to him with open arms despite his insults, that’s fine with me, but I will express my opinion.

Lois

Ok.  But I think that rationalbeliever hasn’t posted since before last Christmas, and was only active on the forum for a couple of weeks.  Anyway, thanks for clearing up who you were addressing.

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Posted: 15 June 2013 07:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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Lois - 15 June 2013 07:08 AM
TimB - 14 June 2013 08:34 PM
Lois - 14 June 2013 06:45 PM
TimB - 14 June 2013 04:22 PM

Lois, I don’t understand your last post, or who it was addressed to. But my understanding is that this forum is, at least, open to anyone who is interested in fostering a secular society based on science, reason, freedom of inquiry, and humanist values.  And in practice, it seems to be open to persons who do not have interest in all of those components.


I have no problem having believers on CFI. I am surrounded by believers, in my family, in my neighborhood, in my community, in the organizations I am a member of. I get along with all reasonable people, including those I disagree with on philosophical grounds.  Four of my dear friends are clergy—a Methodist, an Episcopalian, a Presbyterian and a Rabbi. What ticked me off about Rational Believer was his attack on atheists.  He comes into a discussion group where he must know most people are atheists, and then attacks them for defending their atheism against attacks from believers, callng us “embittered atheists”. That’s a low blow and I intend to defend myself and other atheists against low blows. If he wants to be treated with respect he should start off by respecting the people who are members of the group instead of attacking them and making assumptions about them. If he wanted to join the group and discuss topics rationally, he wouldn’t have started out by making insulting remarks about atheists. Since he did, it does not make me feel particularly welcoming toward him. If others wish to respond to him with open arms despite his insults, that’s fine with me, but I will express my opinion.

 

Lois

Ok.  But I think that rationalbeliever hasn’t posted since before last Christmas, and was only active on the forum for a couple of weeks.  Anyway, thanks for clearing up who you were addressing.

Yes, I didn’t notice the date of the OP, but someone must have responded more recently which made the thread appear in “today’s active topics”.  One of the glitches in the way the forum works and my own inattention to posting dates.

Lois

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Posted: 15 June 2013 09:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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Lois - 14 June 2013 06:58 PM
RevLGKing - 13 June 2013 08:11 PM

Lois, here is some more basic information about the UCC that could be of help in our having an open and honest dialogue: 
http://www.united-church.ca/about

—OK, In response I will use the dialogue method, as follows:
===================

I will call you, L.

LOIS (L) Thanks!

ME: You’re welcome!  grin

L: ... but I wonder. 

Me: Then wonder no longer!  It is obvious to me that, from what you write, you could be the kind of rare person with whom it would be easy to have a meaningful dialogue—would that it were, in person, eh!  LOL

L: Did you think I was not aware of the beliefs of your church and others? 

Me: No! Now, when did you first get interested in studying the history—the theology, the polity and the liturgy—and beliefs of the religions of the world?

L: I was raised a Catholic by a father who was devout and very invested in the church.  Half of my family are/were Catholics and half Protestants of various denominations.

Me: How often did you meet, socially?

L: My husband’s family are/were Anglicans, with one a minister, a missionary in Madagascar, and one a nun.  I am quite well versed in both Catholic and Protestant belief systems.  I have no trouble with reasonable believers.  I don’t criticize their beliefs and I try to understand where they’re coming from, but should anyone criticize my lack of belief in an insulting way, I feel justified in putting them in their place.

Me: Good for you! Now that is a good example of what I call Christian Agape-Love.  Lois

Me: The King family has had a similar Protestant and Catholic experience—no bigotry.

BTW, my only son, Turner (1958), married a very fine person, a Muslim. He met her while attending university. Farah was born in Tehran and is the excellent mother of our only three grandchildren—two girls, 23 and 20 (just finishing university) and a boy who turned 18 this past week. He will be in university this fall. There are some pics of the family on my Face Book page.

My only daughter, Catherine, (1956) an artist and married to an artist, Wayne, who live in a floating house, Tofino, on Vancouver Island, British Columbia ... more about this interesting story. I will post a link with some pics of this living work of art, later ... Well, what do you know, I have it already:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDqbfiejLdM

[ Edited: 15 June 2013 09:11 PM by RevLGKing ]
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