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The Fiscal Cliff and how Godless Secularists cause fiscal collapse
Posted: 04 January 2013 10:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 04 January 2013 10:12 PM

That’s the facts in the historical record. All of the rhetorical misconduct in the world doesn’t change the facts.

I didn’t give you rhetorical anything. I pointed to examples of fiscal collapse that ACTUALLY happened and this is not a debatable point. Not even remotely.

Actually, it is not only debatable, but utterly visible as a completely irrelevant straw man, represented as a relevant fact.  That’s pure rhetorical dishonesty, and you know it as well as I do.  Suggesting that the USSR has the same economy as the USA, for starters, is beyond bizzare. Then, suggesting that a country that controls its currency 100% is like the USA is even more bizzare. THEN comparing a “planned economy” (oxymoron fodder there) with the USA (which fails planning at every possible instance, a different problem) is so far-fetched as to be reaching mythological proportions. 

So your example was utterly bogus.

Then you brought up Greece, and lookie that, the IMF now admits it was wrong to push austerity, and failed to evaluate the situation, and their new take on the matter is exactly what I’m saying.

Then you’re not doing emotional manipulation by deliberately failing to address history in any fashion whatsoever and defaming your opponents by calling recorded, testable, verifiable history “fantasy and wishful thinking”.  When you do that, you are moving into the realm of the historical revisionist.

Excuse me, ma’am, your ethics are showing.

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Posted: 04 January 2013 11:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-04/imf-officials-we-were-wrong-about-austerity.html

Hunh. Something ate the url. Oh well.

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Posted: 05 January 2013 03:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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During the Clinton Administration, the government did a study of what would happen if the US not only didn’t have a budget deficit, but also didn’t have a nation debt.  According to the study, this would be bad for the global economy, as so many nations and organizations invest in T-notes, T-bills, etc., for security reasons, that were these to go away, it would whack their economies/operations very hard.

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Posted: 05 January 2013 06:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Coldheart Tucker - 05 January 2013 03:01 PM

During the Clinton Administration, the government did a study of what would happen if the US not only didn’t have a budget deficit, but also didn’t have a nation debt.  According to the study, this would be bad for the global economy, as so many nations and organizations invest in T-notes, T-bills, etc., for security reasons, that were these to go away, it would whack their economies/operations very hard.

But did they analyse it from the perspective of having a 3-day work week or did the assume unemployment with a 5-day work week?

psik

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Posted: 05 January 2013 10:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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>>Actually, it is not only debatable…<<

No it’s not. And I didn’t ask you to regurgitate your ideaology.

>>Suggesting that the USSR has the same economy as the USA, for starters, is beyond bizzare.<<

I did nothing of the kind. I pointed to the USSR as an example of an economic collapse.

Once more from the top: Now what part of “I’m not going to indulge the sort of fantasy and wishful thinking that your advocating here.” did you NOT understand?

Ohhhh…never mind. You’re just going to repeat your idealogy again, so I’m not going to waste my time with it.

[ Edited: 05 January 2013 10:19 PM by Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon ]
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Posted: 06 January 2013 02:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 05 January 2013 10:16 PM

Ohhhh…never mind. You’re just going to repeat your idealogy again, so I’m not going to waste my time with it.

So, on one side we have a whole bevy of economists, the IMF, and me. (I don’t really rate in the same sentence, to be clear, it’s just a statement of fact, no more.)

On the other side, we have you, just you, and only you, using words like “ideology”, “fantasy”, “wishful thinking’, and other emotionally manipulative insults. Oh, and now you weren’t really using the USSR as evidence of fiscal policy, you just happened to use it for that, but now it’s just an example of an economic disaster.

You have nothing. You have provided nothing but derision and emotionally laden claptrap, coupled with the fallacy of appeal to incredulity, a small army of straw men, and a bunch of inappropriate comparisons.

You have nothing but the desire to hide the truth for your own purposes, whatever they might be.

What is your motivation in attempting to hide the truth? Care to tell?  Yes, I’m questioning your motivation, given your misconduct in this thread.

Let us remember this quote of yours, to keep this all in perspective:

I don’t see what household budgeting has to do with government but the rules of the game don’t magically change just because it’s the government which is doing all the spending. Either you have the money to pay your debts and obligations or you don’t.

There, in a nutshell, your inability to understand the very basics of fiscal policy is fully exposed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_multiplier

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Posted: 06 January 2013 02:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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If I understand correctly, as my son explained it to me (He has a Masters in Finance and Business), most of our debt is owed to ourselves, in the form of bonds. Other countries buy our debt, but by far the majority is internal. It sounds like borrowing from your 401k, you have to pay it back with interest, but in the end you are paying yourself (or those people who own the bonds).

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Posted: 06 January 2013 06:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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asanta - 06 January 2013 02:39 AM

If I understand correctly, as my son explained it to me (He has a Masters in Finance and Business), most of our debt is owed to ourselves, in the form of bonds. Other countries buy our debt, but by far the majority is internal. It sounds like borrowing from your 401k, you have to pay it back with interest, but in the end you are paying yourself (or those people who own the bonds).

Only to some extent.

A household can not print money, and a household’s borrowing does not directly support the value of the currency.

Countries can also print money if they want. It’s not necessarily a good idea, but it’s not always a bad idea, either, depending on both the state of the economy and its (mathematical) derivatives.  Of course, when times are good, they should at least partially undo that.  There’s more, that’s the simple version.

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Posted: 07 January 2013 07:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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For an economy is not like a household. A family can decide to spend less and try to earn more. But in the economy as a whole, spending and earning go together: my spending is your income; your spending is my income. If everyone tries to slash spending at the same time, incomes will fall — and unemployment will soar.

  from http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/07/opinion/krugman-the-big-fail.html?_r=0

More reasoning that claims that household budgets are just like national monetary policy are pure stuff and nonsense.

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Posted: 07 January 2013 11:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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jj - 06 January 2013 06:40 AM
asanta - 06 January 2013 02:39 AM

If I understand correctly, as my son explained it to me (He has a Masters in Finance and Business), most of our debt is owed to ourselves, in the form of bonds. Other countries buy our debt, but by far the majority is internal. It sounds like borrowing from your 401k, you have to pay it back with interest, but in the end you are paying yourself (or those people who own the bonds).

Only to some extent.

A household can not print money, and a household’s borrowing does not directly support the value of the currency

.That part I understand.

Countries can also print money if they want. It’s not necessarily a good idea, but it’s not always a bad idea, either, depending on both the state of the economy and its (mathematical) derivatives.  Of course, when times are good, they should at least partially undo that.  There’s more, that’s the simple version.

And I am sure it is far more complicated than I know.

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Posted: 20 January 2013 06:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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It’s kind of telling how the name-callers who never, EVER cited a single source have vanished completely when confronted by some of their own admitting to harmful quackery.

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Posted: 21 January 2013 09:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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And I am sure it is far more complicated than I know.

Not really complicated at all. It’s called “Inflation” and it’s a phenomon which gradually turns your cash into trash. The kind of hyperinflation it would take to pay off the debt (And it WOULD do that) would render all of your portfolios, lifetime savings, and retirement plans worth less in terms of reas value then the toilet paper hanging on your roller in your bathroom.

It’s kind of telling how the name-callers who never, EVER cited a single source have vanished completely when confronted by some of their own admitting to harmful quackery.

j.j. all you’ve given me is a liberal economic party line which is just as stupid, misleading and just plain wrong as the conservative economic party line. Spinning fiscal fictions and widhful thinking confused for sound economic theory and practice (which government just loves to do) doesn’t take away from the absolute fact that all these guys are doing is debating ever more elaborate ways to rob Peter in order to pay Paul.

It’s one big Ponzi scheme and like all such schemes, fails sooner or later. The difference is that when a government Ponzi scheme fails, it’s has much more disasterous results. it happened to Germany, it happened to the Soviet Union, and it’s happening to the Greeks right now.

This is NOT debatable, this is what’s ACTUALLY happening. I’m watching it happening even while you continue to play ostrich and say that something which IS so, isn’t.

You know, it and so do I.

So….work it that way.

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Posted: 21 January 2013 12:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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More unsubstantiated assertions and parroting of the “fiscal conservative”, without a single, solitary bit of evidence or support.

Yes, our system is in danger of collapse from the austerity idiots, indeed.  But that’s not what you said.

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Posted: 21 January 2013 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Well, the Church was, in the past, quite good at making money.  The idea that money is being spent elsewhere these days is bound to irritate it.  One wonders where the money would go if we were less secular.  Or would there simply be less money?

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Posted: 21 January 2013 03:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Well, the Church was, in the past, quite good at making money.

Religion has got to be one of if not THE oldest scams in the book. It’s not for nothing that the Old Testement calls for tithing. For the temple, this was income. 

The idea that money is being spent elsewhere these days is bound to irritate it.  One wonders where the money would go if we were less secular.

Perhaps a worthy cause and with no strings attatched.

Or would there simply be less money?

I doubt that. Keep in mind that money isn’t wealth in and of itself. It’s a medium of exchange which represents it.

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