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Our sin debt has been settled
Posted: 31 May 2013 05:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 10 February 2013 06:23 AM

What do you mean ‘generally’? We don’t believe in that nonsense at all!

If the introductions section is any indication, we do have a few believers among the regular membership. In all fairness though, they’re mostly diests, not believers in the silliness of the Abrahamic superstition.

I’m glad to see such posters.  We should encourage and welcome them. He is probably sincere in what he believes.  It gives us a chance to explain our skepticism, even if it turns out to never get through to the poster, himself.  We could plant some seeds, though.  Perhaps a few will take root if we have the opportunity to feed and water them regularly and keep his handlers from trampling them underfoot, as they’re wont to do.

Posted: 31 May 2013 08:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Lois - 31 May 2013 05:28 AM
ciceronianus - 30 May 2013 12:59 PM

I don’t understand the OP, but Paul certainly was an extraordinary man, and may well be rightly considered one of the creators if not the creator of Christianity as we know it today.  He was a sophisticated Roman citizen, knowledgeable of Judaism and the ancient pagan mystery religions involving savior gods who died and were reborn for our salvation (and also participation in communal meals in which believers partake in the god—Tarsus was one of the centers of these religions).  It’s also likely he was well acquainted with stoic and platonic philosophy.  In a way, he was himself the kind of hodgepodge of the pagan mysteries, philosophy and Judaism that Christianity became.

But he was a complete dupe. Like his unfortunate followers.

If he was as knowledgeable and sophisticated as you claim he woud have seen through the fantastic, unlikely claims in an instant.  Something must have happened to his mind. Perhaps he became demented. In those days few would have recognized a deterioration in intellect, especially in someone who had a reputation of being learned. It’s sad to hear of such a tragic decline.

Well, his time was a strange time.  The Roman world had gone through great change, from Republic to Empire, civil war all around the Mediterranean, but there was also a loss of interest in the traditional, largely ritualistic, religion, fostered probably by widespread uncertainty and suffering.  Most people were looking for some hope, something better than the world in which they lived.  The Eastern mysteries of salvation and resurrection met that need.  Even the philosophers for the most part believed in a God of some kind, and though they rejected the traditional religions intellectually thought that the rituals should be followed at least, if they didn’t theorize that the many gods merely represented aspects of the one God.  Philosophers had participated in the pagan mysteries for a very long time—Socrates and Plato were initiates of the mysteries of Eleusis.  I’m not sure it would be appropriate to refer to them as “dupes.”


“Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain.” 
—F. Schiller


Posted: 31 May 2013 09:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Total Posts:  604
Joined  2011-08-10
newnature - 09 February 2013 09:02 AM

The great secret that was revealed to Paul is a gift of grace, a free gift. In God’s sight our sin debt has been settled, we stand in righteousness before him right now. He sees us seated with Christ in heaven, we are right now the praise of the glory of his grace throughout eternity. It follows logically that this secret must not be read into the four Gospels or into the book of Revelation.

Paul’s insistence upon the reality of our union with Christ, as having died and risen again in him. The Apostle unfolds to us, we died with Christ, our standing being complete and perfect in Christ, we cannot grow in this standing. We may grow in the knowledge, experience, and enjoyment of it, our life is the outcome of our belief.

If we are ignorant of this free gift, we are easy prey for every minister of righteousness who may rise up. Nothing more is needed to be added, their is not a ordinance on the face of the earth that can make us complete. We don’t need to pass a satisfactory examination, or take another class, we stand in righteousness before God right now.

Thanks for any insight about this free gift.


This clip questions the morality of accepting the punishment of an innocent man instead of the guilty as your gift from God.

Would you hand over the nails to insure that you get your free pass to heaven using Jesus as your scapegoat?


P.S. I just put this related post up. Care to opine.

I noted some of the replies here and am surprised that none have taken you to task on the morality of embracing human sacrifice.
Oh well.

Let’s chat morals my friend.

[ Edited: 31 May 2013 09:16 AM by Greatest I am ]
Posted: 13 October 2013 04:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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To old curmudgeon and all : Then us “converts” can feel ok here since we have been granted a freedom that doesn’t come from ourselves or proclamations/declarations/ legal documents like the U.S. Constitution, Dec. of Independence or the Bill of Rights or some pet philosophy.  Or is this forum a place where only “certain kinds” of freedom are discussed and celebrated ?  If so that would make this whole forum a model example of intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy.

[ Edited: 13 October 2013 04:13 AM by rodin46 ]
Posted: 13 October 2013 06:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Total Posts:  4459
Joined  2009-10-21

I agree with the OP but only in the sense that it provides a way out for Christians. But as all with all ways out that aren’t reality based, has the potential to result in a new way of controlling people. The problem with a “no religion” solution is that any Tom, Dick or Mary can start a house church and start making stuff up. But, still, it’s better than the Old Testament, in the same way Jesus was an improvement and it’s better than Catholicism in the same way Protestantism was. But look what happened with those.

There aren’t many types of truth, there’s just truth, and we can only approach it. Anyone who claims to have it should be treated with suspicion.

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