Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 16 March 2013 08:54 PM

And the Swiss do just as well without it. (And they keep for real assault rifles IN THEIR HOMES as a part of their militia system.).

Well, many Swiss disagree with you. For three weeks we had a gun rampage, and voices become louder to organise weapon administration much better. It is too easy not to be registered. Databases of Canton police, federal police, and the military are totally independent, and badly maintained.

It is a bonmot here that there are more regulations about banana trading than about gun trading and ownership. But maybe that applies more to international weapon trading…

Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 16 March 2013 07:06 AM

EOC, I am aghast!  How could you possibly claim that the government is incompetent, backed up, and wasteful?! 

Just as a little aside DM, take a look at the current budget crisis which threatens to plunge this country into another recession if the “gubmint” doesn’t get it’s act together. On the one hand, both sides seem to be hell bent on orchestrating a crash right along party lines yet they’re awarding billion dollar contracts left and right, floating proposals to fund ever more initiatives (Paid for with WHAT????) and oh yeah…Obama is climbing onto the “Iran is trying to obtain Nukes” bandwagon and is willing to use ALL means to stop them. (Paid for with WHAT????)

These are the same guys who we’re being told should be trusted with a monopoly on deadly force.

Trusted?

The government?

I don’t think so.

The ‘budget crises’ is a creation of the GOP. They are intent on bringing down the Obama presidency, even if it means bringing down the country. Debt is not the problem—and even THAT has been decreased during this presidency, despite what the rethuglicans tell you—the problem is lack of growth, and in order to get growth, you need to spend money. If the GOP can prevent the spending of money (and remember, the debt happened under a republican president who got us into TWO unnecessary wars), they can drive us back into a recession, and hope the blame will be put on the head of the president. They are a dishonest and despicably deceitful group.

Asanta:

It seems you have been paying attention to what is actually going on and not the political rhetoric of the right.  How dare you?!?[/   

Well, many Swiss disagree with you

So what? Many do agree with me. Still, so what that as well? By and large, the Swiss just aren’t going around murdering each other left and right, and it’s not as if there’s a lack of firearm availability. Instead of going for the old post hoc fallacy, you might want to consider other causative factors, such as economic disparities (Always a popular whipping boy for the left and not always wrong either!) Urban overcrowding, inequities and inequality in education, opportunities, etc.

For three weeks we had a gun rampage

You show me a rampage, and I’ll show you in most instances where the shooter was putting out all sorts of warning signs which were softpedeled, dismissed, ignored or even hidden. Jared Loughner is a raving lunatic who should never have been on the streets to begin with under any circumstances. It’s also telling that in the cases of the Colorado Theatre shooter and the Sandy Hook shooter that the one person who refused to make a deal with these guys was the eeeeeeeevile gun dealer. It’s also telling to notice that the Sandy Hook shooter tried to buy guns ILLEGALLY with somebody else’s I.D.

He was turned down. Since what he did was a felony offence, he should have been arrested at once and he wasn’t.

In fact, that seems to be the pattern with the government. The background check laws in force are not statutes which anybody disagrees with, yet they seldom bother attempting to enforce them at all.

In short, government did what it usually does: It dropped the ball then wondered why tragedy was the end result.

The ‘budget crises’ is a creation of the GOP.

Half truth Asanta. And you know better then this too. This whole train wreck has been a long time coming. I’m well aware of what the Republicans are trying to do. It’s reprehensible but in their goals, it’s not at all different from what the Democrats try to do to them. The “cause” may differ, but the goal is exactly the same.

I would submit that anybody who thinks “Our Boys” are the angels who have nothing but love, the best of intentions, and the good of the country at heart is completely blind to all reality. Regardless of platform or whatever cause they pay lip service to, the Republicans and Democrats are about one thing and one thing ONLY: Putting their own empty suits into power while putting the other guy’s empty suits out of power.

Guess I’m done here. So long as all I’m going to get is the party line, I can count on no rational discussion of either issue mooted here.

Question authority and think for yourself. Big Brother does not know best and never has.

As you should be able to see from my posts I am neither pro- nor anti-government.  Government like any other human institution has its good and bad sides depending on whether it is working for the good of the whole society or being used by a single or group of elites to further their own short term ends or is working for the long term benefit of the entire society.  IMO, in the US today the Regannomic economic policies that both the Democrats and the Republicans have contributed to have rebuilt the moneyed aristocracy that F.D.R. began to put minor controls on in the thirties.  Neither party is devoid of responsibility but what both my experience and my economic studies have taught me is that wage earners, for the most part, make out better under the Democrats. 
Blaming government is largely a copout, go after the people who are crating the problems and too often control the government, not through violence, but through democratic electoral means, starting with getting gerrymandering, and unlimited campaign contributions under control and eliminating the Electoral College.
 
There ain’t no “big brother” anymore than there is a god.  Ther is only a government who controls the people it is told to.

Spelling

Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 18 March 2013 04:13 PM

So what? Many do agree with me. Still, so what that as well? By and large, the Swiss just aren’t going around murdering each other left and right, and it’s not as if there’s a lack of firearm availability.

Oh, no, another gun addict!

Imagine two societies of which 75% of the people never make any problem, 15% have heavy family problems, 5% are somehow insane and 5% are criminals. Of course it is impossible to identify all problematic individuals. In which society do you think there are more death cases:
- one were it is difficult to get weapons (so generally only part of the criminals can get guns)
- one where weapons are freely available for everyone

And then Switzerland has less poverty, no big heavy discriminated groups: that are the main reasons that weapons are not so a huge problem here.

And do not forget: in Switzerland weapons should be registered. The insane and criminals should be excluded. (In practice the checks are not rigid enough, and there is no central registry, there is the problem for the Swiss.) Army weapons can be taken home, but ammunition is not allowed.

And, yes, your government cannot be trusted in all matters (well, no government can, but there are not so many countries that can afford just to start a war…). But generally, in western countries, the way to cope with that is to intensify democratic control, not it give access to guns for everyone.

EOC,

Don’t you think that the fact that Americans do go around murdering each other left and right (unlike the Swiss) is enough of a reason to make guns illegal in the US? When Italy tried to get rid of speed limit on their highways, they quickly realized they were not Germany as car accidents skyrocketed. They couldn’t do it. People and peoples are different and their laws should be adjusted accordingly. The right to own arms in the US is as idiotic as trying to introduce democracy in Afghanistan.

The bad news is that making guns illegal in the US won’t happen, e.g. The dems are now backing away from the assault weapons ban. However, the good news is that despite the hype by the NRA, gun ownership is down nationally. It is the lowest it’s been since 2000 and dropping. There are more guns but they’re being bought by those who already own weapons. There are fewer buyers. Also, if you look at the stats, most owners are white, over 50, with average incomes ($50,000), a high school Ed., and conservative. In short a shrinking minority in America that supports the NRA. This may have an impact in the future. It seems that America’s love affair with weapons might just fade in time.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/gun-ownership-statistics-demographics/

Cap’t Jack

Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 16 March 2013 08:54 PM

Whether all that is completely true or well-analyzed or not

It is.

Overall, you did a nice job of missing the point. Most gun control….to say nothing of a lot of other initiatives….assume at it’s very core that Big Brother knows best and is worthy of being trusted.

It doesn’t and it demonsterably is not. I made a point of citing whipping boys and issues harped on by both the right and the left so you have no room to complain and neither do your esteemed opponants on the other side. (Of course, a ot of people deep down are well aware of this but don’t want to admit it when is comes to advocating whatever idiot right or left wing agendas they want to push on everybody else under penalty of law.).

You may wish all those ooopsies weren’t there because they’re so inconvenient but they are and they won’t go away because you or your polar opposites don’t like it.

Face it and deal with it.

The UK, for one, seems to survive with strict gun control and “the gummint” hasn’t tried rounding up unarmed people yet.

And the Swiss do just as well without it. (And they keep for real assault rifles IN THEIR HOMES as a part of their militia system.)

—and weapons, training and their use are strictly controlled by the authoritarian Swiss government, which keeps detailed records of every weapon and its owner.  I can’t imagine Americans wanting anything like the Swiss system.

People like you think it’s perfectly all right to sacrifice innocent people, including kids, to protect everyone’s right to own and use weapons of mass destruction. Good thinking.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc[/I] either way.

George - 19 March 2013 04:30 AM

EOC,

Don’t you think that the fact that Americans do go around murdering each other left and right (unlike the Swiss) is enough of a reason to make guns illegal in the US? When Italy tried to get rid of speed limit on their highways, they quickly realized they were not Germany as car accidents skyrocketed. They couldn’t do it. People and peoples are different and their laws should be adjusted accordingly. The right to own arms in the US is as idiotic as trying to introduce democracy in Afghanistan.

  I strongly agree with George, here.  Well put.

And as an aside, I wish people would get over the silly idea of “Big Brother” government.  We are the government and it will do as we, the citizens as a whole desire, just as long as we are active and knowledgeable about the behavior of those representing us.

Occam