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Posted: 13 March 2013 09:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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garythehuman - 13 March 2013 09:26 AM

I’m basically against capital punishment.  How to you correct the “mistakes” made in the criminal justice system of the an innocent person has been executed?  As far as prison costs - decriminalize drugs as they did booze and the prision populations its costs as well as law enforcement costs and the murder rate will drop greatly.

Exactly!  I do not advocate drug use, but decriminalizing drugs would be a very good start to decreasing the criminal population.  My younger son, IMO, does not need to be in prison, despite the fact he stole money and forged a check to get money for drugs.  He need treatment, which the law enforcers insist he’ll get while in prison.  I question that, but we’ll see what happens.  The fact remains, that people who abuse drugs need treatment, just as alcoholics do.  Not 2, 4, 5 or 7 years in prison.

What makes me angry, is there is a video of this dude in CA who committed murder.  He received 4 years for murder, while my younger son gets 7 for stealing and forgery to get drugs.  What is up with that?  Isn’t murder worse than stealing and/or forgery?  All three crimes are worse than blasphemy, adultery, apostasy, etc, that is for sure, but I think our society has it all wrong to punish an addict worse than a murderer, instead of giving the addict treatment and punishing the murderer. It would be more cost effective to give an addict treatment than to incarcerate them.

That’s not even talking about the mistake of killing an innocent person, which has happened more than once, including in more recent years.

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Posted: 13 March 2013 10:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Exactly!  I do not advocate drug use, but decriminalizing drugs would be a very good start to decreasing the criminal population.  My younger son, IMO, does not need to be in prison, despite the fact he stole money and forged a check to get money for drugs.  He need treatment, which the law enforcers insist he’ll get while in prison.  I question that, but we’ll see what happens.  The fact remains, that people who abuse drugs need treatment, just as alcoholics do.  Not 2, 4, 5 or 7 years in prison.

Been there, done that, bought the teeshirt so to speak. My son was hooked on OxyContin, stole from his workplace and from us, pawning our stuff to support his habit and ended up in jail. Thankfully the judge gave probation if he attended NA, made restitution and didn’t so much as get a traffic ticket for a year. He came through it, at our expense and is now back on his feet and back in school, but it took two years for his brain to reboot back to normal. Other former students of mine weren’t so lucky. I agree that our prisons are stuffed with people whose crimes should be paid of with full restitution, drug counseling and probation unless they physically harmed someone. Legalizing marajuana would help even though there are pros and cons to that argument. And as to using hard timers for experimental purposes I believe that’s already being done. In some cases time is shaved off of their sentences for cooperation, except for the killers and there is no doubt that they are in any way innocent nor can they be rehabilitated so euthanasia might be the way to handle them. So what do we do about those who are found guilty by reason of insanity like the theater killer?


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Posted: 13 March 2013 11:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 13 March 2013 10:36 AM

Exactly!  I do not advocate drug use, but decriminalizing drugs would be a very good start to decreasing the criminal population.  My younger son, IMO, does not need to be in prison, despite the fact he stole money and forged a check to get money for drugs.  He need treatment, which the law enforcers insist he’ll get while in prison.  I question that, but we’ll see what happens.  The fact remains, that people who abuse drugs need treatment, just as alcoholics do.  Not 2, 4, 5 or 7 years in prison.

Been there, done that, bought the teeshirt so to speak. My son was hooked on OxyContin, stole from his workplace and from us, pawning our stuff to support his habit and ended up in jail. Thankfully the judge gave probation if he attended NA, made restitution and didn’t so much as get a traffic ticket for a year. He came through it, at our expense and is now back on his feet and back in school, but it took two years for his brain to reboot back to normal. Other former students of mine weren’t so lucky. I agree that our prisons are stuffed with people whose crimes should be paid of with full restitution, drug counseling and probation unless they physically harmed someone. Legalizing marajuana would help even though there are pros and cons to that argument. And as to using hard timers for experimental purposes I believe that’s already being done. In some cases time is shaved off of their sentences for cooperation, except for the killers and there is no doubt that they are in any way innocent nor can they be rehabilitated so euthanasia might be the way to handle them. So what do we do about those who are found guilty by reason of insanity like the theater killer?


Cap’t Jack

My younger son had that deal a few times, but he just could not shake the drugs and kept ending up in jail until his felony crimes of forgery and stealing.  He kept returning, not having hit his bottom, and like you, I could write a book about that.  Now with nearly killing himself on K2, while on probation, and of course ending up in prison, I think he’s finally hit his bottom from the way he talks.  The fact of the matter is, prohibition of anything does not work, as we saw with the prohibition of alcohol, and I think some of the reasons for Prohibition was spurred on by religious fanatics.

“Guilty by reason of insanity”?  I’ve never really thought about that one, in part because it is one that is difficult to convince a judge of accepting.  However, locking them up, indefinitely, in a long term facility wouldn’t hurt, IMO.  Then again, some might be pleaing that in order to escape a life sentence or capital punishment, thinking that a mental institution would be better than prison.  Then again, they could be lab rats for psychotropic meds.

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Posted: 13 March 2013 11:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Mriana - 13 March 2013 09:31 AM
Dead Monky - 13 March 2013 07:53 AM

I say rid ourselves of them.  The various psychopaths, sociopaths, and the like.  We’re simply draining our resources and wasting our time keeping them in their cages.  Just execute them and be done with it.

And that makes you better than other apes how?  That makes you better than the psychopaths and sociopaths how?  It makes you better than religious fanatics who kill how?

Excellent points, Mriana.  There is no sense in capital punishment.  It is barbaric and no government can never put it into practice fairly.  Too many (one is too many) innocent people are put to death; we know black people are more likely to receive a death sentence than white people.  Dead is dead and there can be no appeal.  No government should have the right to kill people in cold blood, no matter what their crime. If we can’t figure out a way to handle crime and criminals in this country without killing people we should hang our heads in shame.  It is not that complicated.  We don’t need crazed people operating our prisons and their occupants.  On a practical level, as we’ve learned, capital punishment in this country, where even the convicted have rights, is far more expensive than life in prison.  I have yet to hear one intelligent reason for any country to have capital punishment.  Most Western countries have banned it.  The US is the last barbaric holdout in the West and it is a travesty.

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Posted: 13 March 2013 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Lois - 13 March 2013 11:36 AM
Mriana - 13 March 2013 09:31 AM
Dead Monky - 13 March 2013 07:53 AM

I say rid ourselves of them.  The various psychopaths, sociopaths, and the like.  We’re simply draining our resources and wasting our time keeping them in their cages.  Just execute them and be done with it.

And that makes you better than other apes how?  That makes you better than the psychopaths and sociopaths how?  It makes you better than religious fanatics who kill how?

Excellent points, Mriana.  There is no sense in capital punishment.  It is barbaric and no government can never put it into practice fairly.  Too many (one is too many) innocent people are put to death; we know black people are more likely to receive a death sentence than white people.  Dead is dead and there can be no appeal.  No government should have the right to kill people in cold blood, no matter what their crime. If we can’t figure out a way to handle crime and criminals in this country without killing people we should hang our heads in shame.  It is not that complicated.  We don’t need crazed people operating our prisons and their occupants.  On a practical level, as we’ve learned, capital punishment in this country, where even the convicted have rights, is far more expensive than life in prison.  I have yet to hear one intelligent reason for any country to have capital punishment.  Most Western countries have banned it.  The US is the last barbaric holdout in the West and it is a travesty.

I agree and I’ve been questioning capital punishment since my teens, which has been for a long time.  Even then, I could not see the difference between the murderer and the one pulling the handle to kill the murderer.  They seemed one and the same to me, no better than the other, even when I was a teenager, and cannot fathom thinking of it differently.  My mind cannot picture it differently.  They still seem one and the same, no better than the other, both were murderers then and they still are, in my view.

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Posted: 13 March 2013 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Mriana - 13 March 2013 09:45 AM
garythehuman - 13 March 2013 09:26 AM

I’m basically against capital punishment.  How to you correct the “mistakes” made in the criminal justice system of the an innocent person has been executed?  As far as prison costs - decriminalize drugs as they did booze and the prision populations its costs as well as law enforcement costs and the murder rate will drop greatly.

Exactly!  I do not advocate drug use, but decriminalizing drugs would be a very good start to decreasing the criminal population.  My younger son, IMO, does not need to be in prison, despite the fact he stole money and forged a check to get money for drugs.  He need treatment, which the law enforcers insist he’ll get while in prison.  I question that, but we’ll see what happens.  The fact remains, that people who abuse drugs need treatment, just as alcoholics do.  Not 2, 4, 5 or 7 years in prison.

What makes me angry, is there is a video of this dude in CA who committed murder.  He received 4 years for murder, while my younger son gets 7 for stealing and forgery to get drugs.  What is up with that?  Isn’t murder worse than stealing and/or forgery?  All three crimes are worse than blasphemy, adultery, apostasy, etc, that is for sure, but I think our society has it all wrong to punish an addict worse than a murderer, instead of giving the addict treatment and punishing the murderer. It would be more cost effective to give an addict treatment than to incarcerate them.

That’s not even talking about the mistake of killing an innocent person, which has happened more than once, including in more recent years.

I think one of the challenges our society faces is that many (most?) people have a hard time believing that people aren’t in control of, and thereby responsible for their own actions at ALL times. ‘You stole to support your drug habit? Well, that’s your problem. You should have just stopped using drugs, then you wouldn’t have had to steal. Since you didn’t now you get to pay the consequences.’

Just to be clear I agree with you and find the discrepancy between punishment and crime completely unreasonable.

Take care,

Derek

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Posted: 13 March 2013 08:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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harry canyon - 13 March 2013 02:46 PM

I think one of the challenges our society faces is that many (most?) people have a hard time believing that people aren’t in control of, and thereby responsible for their own actions at ALL times. ‘You stole to support your drug habit? Well, that’s your problem. You should have just stopped using drugs, then you wouldn’t have had to steal. Since you didn’t now you get to pay the consequences.’

Just to be clear I agree with you and find the discrepancy between punishment and crime completely unreasonable.

Take care,

Derek

I agree.  People think that, despite addiction, those addicted to a drug can just put it down and quit.  As smoker who has made many attempts to quit and am still trying, I can say it is not that easy to put down said drug or drugs in my son’s case.  The only difference between my habit and his, is mine is legal, I won’t lose my job for smoking (as long as I smoke outside or at home that is), and I can find alternate legal forms of it too- such as an e-cig, a patch, gum, etc.  I don’t have to smoke tobacco to get the nicotine I crave and climb the walls when I’m without it or go steal money to get it or even get arrested for being in possession of nicotine, in any form.  My habit is legal, but I am not bound to tobacco as my only source of the drug, which is the worst form of the drug, and I can withdraw gradually with these other forms.  My younger son’s addiction is not only illegal, but there is very little alternative to fight withdrawals and rehab is just as much of a merry-go-round, if not arrested first, as quitting tobacco is, as well as more costly- thousands of dollars for rehab, legal cost if arrested, tax payer burden if incarcerated etc v maybe hundreds, overtime, for help quitting tobacco and maybe a little extra if one has depression and/or anxiety or alike, which the individual and maybe insurance pays (in the case of depression etc, at least) pays, not the tax payers.  So yes, everyone shells out money to incarcerate drug addicts too, who are really not much different than smokers and alcoholics when you get down to it and the habits are just as deadly and/or risky physically, esp if the criminal aspects are removed.  Alcoholism, most people who are alcoholics have issues keeping a job, but unless they drink and drive, they usually get treatment outside of prison, without tax payers having to pay for it.

While I don’t approve of drug use, addiction to any substance is still an addiction and should be treated by the medical professionals, psychologists, and counselors, not prison guards and/or religious people trying to convert them.  I see very few Xians trying to convert smokers to Jesus, saying that it will keep them off cigs, although they are out there.

[ Edited: 13 March 2013 08:07 PM by Mriana ]
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Posted: 14 March 2013 02:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Mriana - 13 March 2013 09:45 AM

while my younger son gets 7 for stealing and forgery to get drugs.

question 7 years for that.is.effing.outrageous.

I’ve seen people get less time, for much worse, in Maryland.

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Posted: 14 March 2013 02:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Mriana - 13 March 2013 08:02 PM

While I don’t approve of drug use, addiction to any substance is still an addiction and should be treated by the medical professionals, psychologists, and counselors, not prison guards and/or religious people trying to convert them.  I see very few Xians trying to convert smokers to Jesus, saying that it will keep them off cigs, although they are out there.

Yes, and most LEO’s, health care providers agree that it’s a medical problem foremost. At this point, I accept that it’s down to politicians finding it profitable to keep the drug laws the way they are.

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Posted: 14 March 2013 03:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Lois - 13 March 2013 11:36 AM

  On a practical level, as we’ve learned, capital punishment in this country, where even the convicted have rights, is far more expensive than life in prison.

Capitol punishment is only more expensive than life imprisonment, when people are on death row, constantly re-appealing for years and years. Execute the most messed up people quickly, and be done with that problem. Of course that doesn’t mix with Humanism, though. rolleyes

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Posted: 14 March 2013 04:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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mid atlantic - 14 March 2013 02:43 AM
Mriana - 13 March 2013 09:45 AM

while my younger son gets 7 for stealing and forgery to get drugs.

question 7 years for that.is.effing.outrageous.

I’ve seen people get less time, for much worse, in Maryland.

My son is also 1/2 Black, which makes him all black in the system (they obviously still do the one drop law, but avoid saying so), despite being told he’s both by both of us.  So it gets even more outrageous and you can see why I got upset about that dude who committed murder and only got 4 years in prison.  The system is screwed up when people do worse crimes and get less time, plus factor in the minority population in prisons v the white population.

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Posted: 14 March 2013 04:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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mid atlantic - 14 March 2013 02:55 AM
Mriana - 13 March 2013 08:02 PM

While I don’t approve of drug use, addiction to any substance is still an addiction and should be treated by the medical professionals, psychologists, and counselors, not prison guards and/or religious people trying to convert them.  I see very few Xians trying to convert smokers to Jesus, saying that it will keep them off cigs, although they are out there.

Yes, and most LEO’s, health care providers agree that it’s a medical problem foremost. At this point, I accept that it’s down to politicians finding it profitable to keep the drug laws the way they are.

That’s basically my thoughts too.  Greedy politicians don’t care as long as they get money.

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Posted: 14 March 2013 07:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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mid atlantic - 14 March 2013 03:43 AM
Lois - 13 March 2013 11:36 AM

  On a practical level, as we’ve learned, capital punishment in this country, where even the convicted have rights, is far more expensive than life in prison.

Capitol punishment is only more expensive than life imprisonment, when people are on death row, constantly re-appealing for years and years. Execute the most messed up people quickly, and be done with that problem. Of course that doesn’t mix with Humanism, though. rolleyes

And if the person has been wrongly convicted?

Back to the orginal thread:
According to this morning’s Buffalo News Saudi Arabia excuted 7 men convicted of theft, looting and armed robbery Weds. by firing squad.  Amesty International points out “It’s a bloody day when a government executes seven peopleon the grounds of ‘confessions’ obtained under torture, submitted at a trial where they had no legal representation or recourse to appeal.”

[ Edited: 14 March 2013 07:57 AM by garythehuman ]
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Posted: 14 March 2013 01:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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My original comment about veiled barbarism was meant only to cover what we in the US cover by lethal injection etc.  Sure Saudi includes more, but that’s because they have no separation of church and state. As for Fundies in the US, you bet your bippie if they had their way they’d do away with that separation, and slowly the US too would be giving lethal injections to abortion clinic doctors, probably youngs girls who had abortions, you name it.

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Posted: 14 March 2013 03:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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My original comment about veiled barbarism was meant only to cover what we in the US cover by lethal injection etc.  Sure Saudi includes more, but that’s because they have no separation of church and state. As for Fundies in the US, you bet your bippie if they had their way they’d do away with that separation, and slowly the US too would be giving lethal injections to abortion clinic doctors, probably youngs girls who had abortions, you name it.


In that respect, unfortunately you might be right. Few remember that at one time getting and assisting in abortion was a felony and homosexuality was a crime, and it wasn’t all that long ago. Protecting the establishment clause is essential and yes, there are fundies that would salivate at ridding the first amendment of church-state separation. However, the idea of Islamic style punishment in the US still wouldn’t fly. It hasn’t been used since the"Indian Wars” of the last century. ( “Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee”).


Cap’t Jack

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