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Posted: 19 March 2013 03:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Arthur King - 19 March 2013 12:31 PM
Thevillageatheist - 19 March 2013 10:32 AM

Arthur, I looked In on your site and skimmed through a few or your entries and it appears that you are taking a subjective approach to history as motivated by xtianity. Your first entry however, is confusing in that your claim of a god creating the universe can’t be substantiated, or are you parodying xtian thought? Also, as to writing a book on the subject, you had better be prepared to expand it to a series. Remember, it took Will and Ariel Durant 11 volumes to write a history of civilization and there’s lots of room for digression. But it is an interesting subject to trace through history from early Roman xtianity to today. Good luck!


Cap’t Jack

Christianity is the most powerful force on this Earth at the moment and it cannot be ignored in any analysis of history, post 313AD.  The destruction of civilization Europe by christianity’s ‘dark ages’ and the simultaneous disappearance of budding civilizations in the Americas looks like an interesting subject to pursue.  I see a vast destruction of historical records and all existing technology ocurring with the creation of christisanity by the Romans.  I know that they controlled the slaves with imposed poverty, ignorance, and terror which is probably the reason that all technology and the history of it was was completely suppressed and destroyed. Perhaps there is a fact that the Romans were making inroads into the Americas that far back that has been suppressed and destroyed.


You are going to need to become familar with Rodney Stark’s writings defending the positives of Xtianity in the Roman period.  “The Rise of Christianity”  “Cities of God” The Victory of Reason”  These will give you an idea of what the serious critics of your position will use against you.  i would be interested in your responses as while I don’t entirely agree with Starks I do think that all religions including Xtianity has there positives as well as negatives.

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Posted: 19 March 2013 09:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 19 March 2013 02:28 PM

Christianity is the most powerful force on this Earth at the moment and it cannot be ignored in any analysis of history, post 313AD.  The destruction of civilization Europe by christianity’s ‘dark ages’ and the simultaneous disappearance of budding civilizations in the Americas looks like an interesting subject to pursue.  I see a vast destruction of historical records and all existing technology ocurring with the creation of christisanity by the Romans.  I know that they controlled the slaves with imposed poverty, ignorance, and terror which is probably the reason that all technology and the history of it was was completely suppressed and destroyed. Perhaps there is a fact that the Romans were making inroads into the Americas that far back that has been suppressed and destroyed.

That’s a good thesis to start off as the Christianized Romans sought to stamp out paganism (they were the pagans at first!) and with it Greek philosophy. And BTW all of the classical civilizations incorporated slavery until replaced by technology and even then it continued as a practice until well into the late 19Th Century in the Western World. As to the Romans being here, there is no evidence of Western contact until the Viking explorations in the 900’s. You could say that in an obtuse way Roman influenced countries such as Spain and Portugal extended the method of conquering more primative cultures (as the Romans did to our Celtic ancestors) but these cultures were wiped out in the main by diseases born by the whites, see the book “1491”, a great read. Also, in reference to the “Dark Ages” brought about by the Goths; they were Christians as well, but heretics who followed Bishop Arian. Just remember what I mentioned about digression! You’ve brought up Sooo many interesting topics it’s like jumping in your horse and riding off in all directions at once. It would be difficult to focus your attention on one even if you tie them all together with the thread of xtianity.

 

Cap’t Jack

I used ‘angeloftruth’ to get the attention, and hopefully some arguments from xians.  No luck so far, they all flee any argument about their religion,  I think they all suspect the truth but cannot accept it because of the influence of PTSD, brain damage caused by constant fear of burning in hell. (Not a joke).  Some one was building computers 2000 years ago, and all record of that has been erased, as well as records of how almost everything was done pre-313.  Obviously, this was painstakingly done to support their policies of controlling and retaining the slaves through imposed poverty, ignorance, and terror, something they still strive to do today.  History is retention of the editoralizing of the events of the day, and we see a false history being recorded by the xians today, in realtime, right out in front of us, so I assume it has always been so.  All who are forced to toil for the benefit of someone else is a slave.  Slavery still exists, big time, right now, today, and it is christianity’s ‘work or die’ (Bachmann) society that provides the force.  In our sea of lies, “work”, “job”, “occupation”, et al have all come to mean toiling for the benefit of someone else.  That we are all still slaves is one of the most closely guarded secrets of christian society.

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Posted: 20 March 2013 07:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Arthur King:

I have posted many of my thoughts in: http://www.angeloftruth.com/content.  Please read and critique

 

I have read through a bit of your writing.  IMO they are overly simplistic and no better than the propaganda writings of the religious defending their faith.  I think you are letting your pre-conceived anti-religious mentality get in the way of an objective examination of these social movements.  This is a major flaw that will defeat your own purpose in opposing religion.  Also you present no alternatives. 
Religion empowers not just the elites but also those who are subjected; it provides organization for many different interest groups and often is the only tool available for those at the bottom of the social pyramid.  Any rational study of religion has to take this into account.

You seem to be writing a polemic, not a serious study.  You present no evidence for your viewpoints and appear to be ignorant of many aspects of what was going on at the time of the events you mention.  i.e. The main reason that Constantine seems to have accepted Xtianity as the religion for the Roman Empire is that he was moving the capital of the Empire from Rome to Constantinople and as the nobility in Rome who were losing influence due to this were still worshipers of the old gods.  Converting to Xtianity gave him cover to move the capital as well as the fact that most scribes (who were necessary to the communications used to administer the Empire) in the area of Constantinople were Christians and he needed their support.)

I, as most people at this forum; CFI and the Secular Humanist movement as a whole have a strong belief that any discussion must be based upon “the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.”  Failure to do so does not meet our standards nor represent our best interests.

While I agree with your non-belief, I find your writing lacks the necessary objectivity to be seriously considered by anyone who values ‘true objectiveknowledge’, and that ‘true objective knowledge’ is the basis for our rejection of religion in the first place.

Religion has had an important role in history as a tool of cultural memory; a tool to set ethical standards and social mores; a tool to liberate as well as oppress; a tool to expamd and defend particular cultures.  What do you propose to replace it with?

So if you are serious about knowledge, try to get past your personal prejudice against religion and examine both sides of it.

[ Edited: 20 March 2013 09:54 AM by garythehuman ]
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Posted: 26 March 2013 07:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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“IMO they are overly simplistic and no better than the propaganda writings of the religious defending their faith”
Please be specific about which subject and state why it appears that way to you

“I think you are letting your pre-conceived anti-religious mentality get in the way of an objective examination of these social movements.”
Why do you think my views on religion are pre-conceived?  Why do you think my findings arfe not objective?

“Also you present no alternatives. “
Alternatives? My central subject is the tyrannies and treacheries of that organization called ‘christianity’.

“Religion empowers not just the elites but also those who are subjected;”
The central theme is the use of religion that gives a few elites power of the many of the enslaved masses.

“it provides organization ...”
It ENFORCES the rules of political organizations; control where control is a political function.  It IS the tool for control and subjugation by the elites over the masses, control that was rebelled against in 1775, 1789, 1848, 1917, 1946, 1948, 1958, etc in the rebellions of the slave masses against their masters.

‘You seem to be writing a polemic, not a serious study. “
Any analysis must be based on what something does, not one’s opinion or editoralizing about it.  That is the only way that truth can be revealed.  I do not believe in ‘uninteded consequences’, I can observe that almost everything that is is as it is because someone wanted it to be that way.  Christendom controlled the masses of slaves in Europe called ‘serfs’ absolutely for around 1500 years, and partially until this day where the former ‘serfs’ are now called ‘employees’ but their function in support of the elite is exactly the same.  Therefore my concluson that christendom was created for the specific purpose of controlling the slaves for the profit of the elite (for 10% of the profits).

“You present no evidence for your viewpoints ...”
That ‘evidence’ is observable today, in realtime, to all, all of the time, and we are innundated with lies as to why it is as it is.  There is OBVIOUSLY a great gap in the historical records occurring around the time of the creation of christendom, a vanishing of all technology whose existence is now being uncovered by archaeologists, such as the 2000 year or so old computer that was found some time back, the apparent automated stone saw evidence discovered recently in Asia, and the question of how they did so many seemingly impossible things, but the evidence says they did have technology to do such, ...and we had to reinvent it after 1313AD or so.  I can readily see the slave control philosophy of imposed poverty, ignorance, and terror in the day to day doings of the christian theocrats today, and these ancient things fit into that philosophy exactly.

“The main reason that Constantine seems to have accepted Xtianity as the religion for the Roman Empire is that he was moving the capital of the Empire from Rome to Constantinople and as the nobility in Rome who were losing influence…”
The cause and results seem to indicate that Constantine created christendom to do what it does, becuse the benefactors were the Roman nobility who continued to own all that existed, including the slaves, and successfully expanded into all of Europe.  As for their ‘bible’ it is obvious to any rational person that it was intend for very ignorant people, filled with lies about the happenings of things that are clearly impossible.  So if any publication has that many provable lies, the whole of the document is most likely a big lie.  It took fifty years to write it, and it’s sucess in keeping the slaves under control and pumping wealth to the elites is testment to the skill, care, and intentions of those who wrote it.  It still works for them today.  I think when they destroyed all technology and all the records of it that they rewrote history at the same time, destroying all of the original records that they could find.  They had 1000 years to pull that off.  They can be observed rewriting and falsifying history, lying about current events, TODAY, in realtime, right out in the open, visible to all.  “Evidence” is everywhere, profuse.

“I find your writing lacks the necessary objectivity ...”
To truly understand any happening, one must answer the question “WHY”.  Everything that is is as it because someone wanted it that way, so “WHY” is essential to truly be objective.  The conclusions from my analysis asnswers more “WHYS” that any I have ever been able to encounter and when I ask others for help in this I get back nothing.  I have one more that I am developing that answers the question ‘does god exist, and if so what is it?’.

“Religion has had an important role in history as a tool of cultural memory;...”
Wrong.  It is easily and simply observable to be a tool of control, and it’s ‘ethics’ are it’s elements of control.  For example, in christendom (this is eminently observable) ‘sin’ is a synonym for ‘freedom’, and christendom works tirelessly to remove all of your ‘sins’, but those without ‘sin’ (freedom) are slaves.  Objectivity.  The objective of chrtistianity is human slavery. 

The only thing I have documented that anyone might confuse with prejudice is the things that I had to extract through logic where no records exists, but knowing the culture of the times and human nature certain things are probably true.  Like the probability that a “Jesus” really existed, and he was an anti-slavery activist, perhaps a discipline or contemporary of Spartacus, perhaps a survivor of the rebellion.  To make the ‘bible’ thing a success, it’s central figure was most likely already something of a ‘rock star’ among the targeted chattel slaves who were being converted to ‘serfs’ and losing their chains and whips…believing that ‘Jesus saves” from slavery.

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Posted: 27 March 2013 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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I think you are letting your pre-conceived anti-religious mentality get in the way of an objective examination of these social movements.”
Why do you think my views on religion are pre-conceived?  Why do you think my findings arfe not objective?

IMO, you do not understand that religion has been used by many groups of people to support their identity, justify their actions and oppose the actions of other groups.  Yes religiion has often been used by elities to oppress, but it has also been used by the oppressed to oppose the elities, ie. The US civil rights movement in the 50s -70s, the reformation and counter reformation in Europe.  It is currently being used by many different groups in the Middle East for a multitude of purposes.  Before the advent of the nation-state relgion was one of the main tools all of Western Civilization to influence their socities.  Religion is a political tool that can be used in many ways, until you recognize this you cannot write objectively about religion.

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Posted: 27 March 2013 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Religion is a form of politics, period, the worst kind that supports and encourages totalitarianism.

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Posted: 27 March 2013 11:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Arthur King - 27 March 2013 11:38 AM

Religion is a form of politics, period, the worst kind that supports and encourages totalitarianism.

It’s bad but there are worse. Hitler’s racism and Stalin’s fanaticism, resulting in Lysenko starving millions of Russians to death, were a lot worse. Just sayin’...

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Posted: 27 March 2013 12:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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I find that most of the tales of the Soviets killing their own are just christian hate sponsored lies.  They lost 20,000,000 to Hitler.

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Posted: 27 March 2013 01:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Arthur King - 27 March 2013 12:50 PM

I find that most of the tales of the Soviets killing their own are just christian hate sponsored lies.  They lost 20,000,000 to Hitler.


Couldn’t it have been both? To assume one precludes the other invalidates historical truth.

LL.

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Posted: 27 March 2013 05:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Do not confuse ‘historicsal truth’ with vengeful christian lies, they hate the Russians who kicked them out of their country in 1917 in order to cement the freedom of the slaves.

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Posted: 27 March 2013 05:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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I find that most of the tales of the Soviets killing their own are just christian hate sponsored lies.  They lost 20,000,000 to Hitler.

Ok, time to do some hard core research. The records that are available show that Stalinization killed approximately 6-9 million, many of whom died during the collectivizaton period in the early 30’s. Additional Russians were imprisoned in the guags and left to die during the war for lack of food and one source sites killings by the NKVD at over a quarter million. But we may never know the exact total as some of these deaths went unrecorded. The army purges, Polish officers who were massacred (some 15,000 well documented by Nazi propagandists in the Katyn forest) and thousands killed during the occupation of the Baltic countries are also added to the casualty figures not to mention the slaughter of the Kulaks. the figure may be higher but Beria was not so forth coming on the secret killings done on behalf of his leader. This does not include the battle deaths and the assassination of countless Jews and gypsies by the Nazi SD. All of the above have been well documented by the Russian Government and via captured Nazi documents and videos not to mention thousands of copies of personal testimonies by victims who survived. Xtianity doesn’t enter into it as the Stalin regime was led controlled and operated by officials with no interest in a xtian agenda.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 27 March 2013 11:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Arthur King - 27 March 2013 12:50 PM

I find that most of the tales of the Soviets killing their own are just christian hate sponsored lies.  They lost 20,000,000 to Hitler.

Sure. Millions of Russians were killed in the war. But also millions by Stalin himself.

The concept of revisionism comes to my mind.

Why did nobody mention Mao and the cultural revolution? Also Christian propaganda?

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Posted: 28 March 2013 03:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Sure. Millions of Russians were killed in the war. But also millions by Stalin himself.

The concept of revisionism comes to my mind.

Why did nobody mention Mao and the cultural revolution? Also Christian propaganda?

While we’re on the subject of revisionism, it’s being done here on a grand scale. Fundie writers are insisting that the US was founded on xtian principles and our founding fathers were devout evangelicals. So retelling history isn’t just for totalitarians; we have our own homegrown revisionists here who twist and add facts to suit their own agenda. I’ve mentioned Chris Rada’s book “Liars for Jesus” several times on this forum. She exposes all of the major revisionists and their cut and paste tricks. Also, he probably didn’t mention Mao because the cultural rev. Had nothing significant to do with Arthur’s concept of xtian World domination. Good point though as Mao was responsible for the deaths of over 20 million through starvation and assassination while he dined like an Ameican and enjoyed western movies. Sounds like that little fat kid in North Korea.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 28 March 2013 08:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Arthur King - 27 March 2013 05:29 PM

Do not confuse ‘historicsal truth’ with vengeful christian lies, they hate the Russians who kicked them out of their country in 1917 in order to cement the freedom of the slaves.

How about vengeful Russian lies?  Are they somehow better?

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Posted: 04 April 2013 07:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 27 March 2013 05:33 PM

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I find that most of the tales of the Soviets killing their own are just christian hate sponsored lies.  They lost 20,000,000 to Hitler.

Ok, time to do some hard core research. The records that are available show that Stalinization killed approximately 6-9 million, many of whom died during the collectivizaton period in the early 30’s. Additional Russians were imprisoned in the guags and left to die during the war for lack of food and one source sites killings by the NKVD at over a quarter million. But we may never know the exact total as some of these deaths went unrecorded. The army purges, Polish officers who were massacred (some 15,000 well documented by Nazi propagandists in the Katyn forest) and thousands killed during the occupation of the Baltic countries are also added to the casualty figures not to mention the slaughter of the Kulaks. the figure may be higher but Beria was not so forth coming on the secret killings done on behalf of his leader. This does not include the battle deaths and the assassination of countless Jews and gypsies by the Nazi SD. All of the above have been well documented by the Russian Government and via captured Nazi documents and videos not to mention thousands of copies of personal testimonies by victims who survived. Xtianity doesn’t enter into it as the Stalin regime was led controlled and operated by officials with no interest in a xtian agenda.


Cap’t Jack

The collectivation period was actually a civil war where many did die, but that is common in all civil wars.  We killed a million in ours.  Most of the numbers I have seen published tend to be unbelievable and are published by those who hate them for kicking the christian slavemakers out.  Christendom is the most fanatical and murderous organization on the face of the Earth and it’s eternal resistence to human freedom within the USSR undoubtably led to many deaths, right up to today.  Everybody unloaded on everybody else in WW2.  Every government of free people has had to make hard decisions between life and freedom, and in most cases freedom wins, meaning lives have to be taken to maintain freedom.  We do that here profusely.  Stalin and the communist party was anti-slavery, which means they were anti-xtian.  Xanity caused the creation of the communist party as a protective wall between the freed slaves and freedom quashing religions of all sorts, but especialliy xianity.  Christianity and working people are like krypton and superman, if the priest can get near the worker, he can induct him into slavery via PTSD, the christian death ray against freedom.  Thus the protective impenetratible wall of communism.

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