2 of 4
2
Role of gov’t in the economy.
Posted: 24 March 2013 07:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4576
Joined  2008-08-14

George-Theology is the study of something that doesn’t exist. Economy, OTOH, is real. Just like with most social sciences, economics is far from perfect, but I believe we’ll get there eventually.

I know Stiglitz is only having fun here, but as smart as he can be, he is no Oscar Wilde. His attempt at trying to sound witty here doesn’t seem to work at all. At least for me it doesn’t.

-How do you know Stiglitz was only being funny?  Did he say so?


George first, theology is the study of religions-which do exist.
I think your attempt here to try and sound pragmatic doesn’t work at all.
What makes economics any more real than theology? In fact what makes economics real?
The only thing we know about economics is that there are many different schools of competing and complimentary economics.
And there are many people who feel that they have the right economic formula. But like you said they are far from perfect.
You think they would have it perfected by now.  Why isn’t it perfected yet?  It’s been thousands of years. It deals with pretty straight forward material.
What’s the hold up? 
Sounds an awful lot like religion to me.  No they will never perfect it. It can’t be perfected. Economics runs straight into the wall of human nature.
There’s nothing to perfect because “economics” is a loose term or concept which is used to describe or enumerate the prevailing and current situation of resource allocation and the reactions of people to those resource allocations.
The point of view that economics will one day be perfected is the most stark example of economics being exactly like religion!
In order to perfect it, one would have to think that the prevailing situation could be changed.  It can’t.  That’s why it’s called prevailing.
Look at all the Rum-bum economic geniuses that have occupied ministerial or cabinet or administrative positions for centuries!  They were certainly qualified and experts. The best any of them could do was to adjust to the prevailing situation and either have temporary success, or temporary failure.

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 March 2013 09:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
VYAZMA - 24 March 2013 07:39 PM

George-Theology is the study of something that doesn’t exist. Economy, OTOH, is real. Just like with most social sciences, economics is far from perfect, but I believe we’ll get there eventually.

I know Stiglitz is only having fun here, but as smart as he can be, he is no Oscar Wilde. His attempt at trying to sound witty here doesn’t seem to work at all. At least for me it doesn’t.

-How do you know Stiglitz was only being funny?  Did he say so?


George first, theology is the study of religions-which do exist.
I think your attempt here to try and sound pragmatic doesn’t work at all.
What makes economics any more real than theology? In fact what makes economics real?
The only thing we know about economics is that there are many different schools of competing and complimentary economics.
And there are many people who feel that they have the right economic formula. But like you said they are far from perfect.
You think they would have it perfected by now.  Why isn’t it perfected yet?  It’s been thousands of years. It deals with pretty straight forward material.
What’s the hold up? 
Sounds an awful lot like religion to me.  No they will never perfect it. It can’t be perfected. Economics runs straight into the wall of human nature.
There’s nothing to perfect because “economics” is a loose term or concept which is used to describe or enumerate the prevailing and current situation of resource allocation and the reactions of people to thosJe resource allocations.
The point of view that economics will one day be perfected is the most stark example of economics being exactly like religion!
In order to perfect it, one would have to think that the prevailing situation could be changed.  It can’t.  That’s why it’s called prevailing.
Look at all the Rum-bum economic geniuses that have occupied ministerial or cabinet or administrative positions for centuries!  They were certainly qualified and experts. The best any of them could do was to adjust to the prevailing situation and either have temporary success, or temporary failure.

I think it’s a good quote.  Economics has become a religion for people at the top of the income scale.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 March 2013 11:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4520
Joined  2007-08-31
George - 24 March 2013 11:44 AM

Economy, OTOH, is real.

I must keep in mind that you said this.

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 March 2013 06:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29

VYAZMA,

Theology is the study of God, not religions. Religions, which of course do exist, are studied by, for example, anthropology.

As far as economics being far from perfect, IMO, the one thing that would help them move ahead is adding biology to the equation. But I know you don’t believe in that stuff or it makes you upset or something like that…

[ Edited: 25 March 2013 06:42 AM by George ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 March 2013 06:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29
GdB - 24 March 2013 11:41 PM
George - 24 March 2013 11:44 AM

Economy, OTOH, is real.

I must keep in mind that you said this.

I still believe that freedom (your “free will”) is real.  wink

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 March 2013 08:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2415
Joined  2007-07-05
garythehuman - 24 March 2013 10:42 AM
George - 23 March 2013 05:32 PM
garythehuman - 23 March 2013 02:59 PM

Economics is the theology of today. - Stiglitz, Joseph

This must be one of the silliest thing I have heard in a long time.

It may be silly but it is fairly close to the truth.

A large percentage of the talk by people claiming to be talking about economics are just rationalizing their economic ideology.

But can economics escape physics?  Can the Laws of Physics tell the difference between a machine that is a Capital Good and a machine that is a Consumer Good.

So what has happened to the depreciation of all of the automobiles purchased by consumers since the Moon landing?  Galbraith wrote about the planned obsolescence of cars in The Affluent Society in 1959.  So how is it that most economists haven’t noticed it in the last 50 years?

There were 200,000,000 cars in the US in 1995.  At $1,500 in depreciation per car that is $300,000,000,000.  The economics profession disappeared it into space.  That does not count the televisions, air conditioners, refrigerators, etc., etc.

http://www.spectacle.org/1199/wargame.html

Double-entry accounting is 700 years old.  What economic ideology advocates mandatory accounting in our schools?  Can’t our smartphones that are more powerful than 1980s mainframes handle it?  LOL

Of course if economists suggest that now then how do they explain not suggesting it 30 years ago?

psik

 Signature 

Fiziks is Fundamental

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 March 2013 09:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5551
Joined  2010-06-16

While economics is real, I think the term, “economic science” is an oxymoron.  It doesn’t matter what you would like to believe about the way finance, etc. works. you can find a PhD economist who can or has written a thesis showing the validity of your ideas.  While I think there is a real scientific basis for economic functioning, we still seem to be at the point chemistry was three hundred years ago with alchemists and magicians.

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 March 2013 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2415
Joined  2007-07-05
Occam. - 25 March 2013 09:41 AM

While economics is real, I think the term, “economic science” is an oxymoron.

Technology changes society and economics.  Henry Ford did more to make Karl Marx obsolescent than John Maynard Keynes.

But I think all discussion of economics since about 1920 that does not incorporate planned obsolescence and Demand Side Depreciation is either really stupid or a deliberate lie.

So how should our politicians deal with the corporations making junk?  This can bring in the issues of pollution and climate change.

psik

 Signature 

Fiziks is Fundamental

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 March 2013 10:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4576
Joined  2008-08-14
George - 25 March 2013 06:21 AM

VYAZMA,

Theology is the study of God, not religions. Religions, which of course do exist, are studied by, for example, anthropology.

As far as economics being far from perfect, IMO, the one thing that would help them move ahead is adding biology to the equation. But I know you don’t believe in that stuff or it makes you upset or something like that…

WTF are you talking about?

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 March 2013 03:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  776
Joined  2009-07-17
Occam. - 23 March 2013 10:47 PM

I agree with your plan, Lois, except for one thing.  I think we have to assign a minimum adequate living income for everyone to help keep them out of poverty, say, the first $50,000 of income would not be taxed.  That way we wouldn’t be penalizing those who can hardly survive on their incomes.

Occam

Hmm… I’d think that value should be based on the cost of living of your residence. $50k goes along way in a small town in the mid-West vs. SF Bay Area, LA Area, New York, et al. Heck, around here $50k is barely a downpayment!  tongue wink

But all these exceptions and attempts to make it fair (or skew it towards someone’s benefit cool smile ) are what it make the tax code so complicated.

Take care,

Derek

 Signature 

“It is noble to be good; it is still nobler to teach others to be good—and less trouble.”—Mark Twain

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 March 2013 06:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
VYAZMA - 23 March 2013 08:51 AM

The Government is the economy!  Everywhere!
Only the wealthy ever want to frame the dichotomy of government verses economy(ie. private sector etc ...)
The Government is the economy.
This can be summed up in this simple dictum:
When people petition the govt. through lobbying, voting, bribery, blackmail, referendums, policy organizations, gerrymandering, etc…they are trying to
mold the government in their best private interests.
This is government! That is government!
What do many of these invalids think? That govt is some outside force? No the govt is being steered by the people. It is the people.
We get the friggin’ government we deserve!
And the wealthy get the government they pay for.
And when you hear talk about…“big government” or govt. vs. private sector…that’s the wealthy and the powerful interests being the squeaky wheel.
They are the friggin’ govt!  And they want their govt.  Not our government!
They’re absolutely happy when it’s their government(a big friggin’ govt I might add!!)
But when the people(the underrepresented, disenfranchised people) start to reach for a piece of their own government, well then…
Government is too big!  It’s government verses the people! 
The government is the economy!  Wake up!

I’m not so sure the government is the economy.  It’s true that government always gets involved in the economy but I’m not sure that’s a necessity except where government expects to control the distribution of money.  Theoretically, at least, a government could stay out of the economy and make no laws regarding it. I don’t think that would work, but i think it woud be possible in the short term and as a philosophy.  Government will always become involved when the idea of taxation comes in and no government can function without being financially supported one way or another.  So it will be involved on that level.  In a true democracy, the people must want the government to control the economy or it wouldn’t happen.  It’s an interesting topic of discussion.  Can a government stay out of the economy? Would it result in anarchy? Would the people rise up and demand it?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 March 2013 08:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1283
Joined  2011-03-12

I’m not so sure the government is the economy.

It isn’t, however the decisions it makes can often have a very good or an extremely bad effect ON the economy. The current budget battles along with the hue and the cry over who’s going to cut what from where as well as the uncertainty which goes along with it is an example of that.

Think for example, of just the pensioners, be they Social Security recipients or civil service/military retirees along with current employees who are wondering if they are even going to get their benefits or a paycheck. Current employees number 4,403,000 as of 2011. Then count those who get pensions then count those who receive Social Security benefits.

Anybody think that won’t have an effect if that goes away, even for a brief time?

Now factor in the number of private sector industries which are kept afloat by government contracts.

Anybody thing THAT won’t have an effect if it goes away? ( Possibly for good!)

 Signature 

Question authority and think for yourself. Big Brother does not know best and never has.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 March 2013 10:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2415
Joined  2007-07-05
VYAZMA - 23 March 2013 08:51 AM

The Government is the economy!  Everywhere!
Only the wealthy ever want to frame the dichotomy of government verses economy(ie. private sector etc ...)
The Government is the economy.
This can be summed up in this simple dictum:
When people petition the govt. through lobbying, voting, bribery, blackmail, referendums, policy organizations, gerrymandering, etc…they are trying to
mold the government in their best private interests.

Uhhh, not quite.

The government is a big factor in the economy and has become a bigger factor since The Depression and World War II.

One annoying thing is that computers helped make the government bigger from WWII until the 1980s.

The Census Bureau helped finance UNIVAC.  Giant organizations like corporations and the govenrment could not function without computers and World War II forced the development of large sacle organizational techniques.  But the entire concept of land ownership and deeds involves the governmet along with printing money.

But the government does not control people’s economic activity.  Just tries to tax it.

But that is the funny thing about this society.  Wouldn’t Adam Smith’s enlightened self interest be a logical justification for mandatory accounting.  But why 8isn’t that idea promoted.

All warfare is based on deception. - Sun Tzu

The economic wargame is the continuation of the military wargame by other means.

But what is EVERYBODY having computers going to do to the game?

Subversive (1962) by Reynolds Mack
http://www.digilibraries.com/ebook/115574/Subversive/

Cost of Living (1952) by Robert Sheckley
https://senjibqa.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/cost-of-living/

psik

 Signature 

Fiziks is Fundamental

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 March 2013 04:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4576
Joined  2008-08-14

Lois-I’m not so sure the government is the economy.  It’s true that government always gets involved in the economy but I’m not sure that’s a necessity except where government expects to control the distribution of money.  Theoretically, at least, a government could stay out of the economy and make no laws regarding it. I don’t think that would work, but i think it would be possible in the short term and as a philosophy.  Government will always become involved when the idea of taxation comes in and no government can function without being financially supported one way or another.  So it will be involved on that level.  In a true democracy, the people must want the government to control the economy or it wouldn’t happen.  It’s an interesting topic of discussion.  Can a government stay out of the economy? Would it result in anarchy? Would the people rise up and demand it?

Yeah, I’m not talking philosophy here, or theories Lois.
If your sharp enough to realize it, aside from the rhetorical “stuff” at the end of your paragraph here, everything else you stated above supports
the fact that government is the economy.
For example,

Lois- Theoretically, at least, a government could stay out of the economy and make no laws regarding it. I don’t think that would work,

Lot’s of things can be theoretical,  but lets say that government made no laws regarding the economy. How does that happen?  Through government? Why would that happen?

[ Edited: 26 March 2013 04:40 AM by VYAZMA ]
 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 March 2013 04:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4576
Joined  2008-08-14
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 25 March 2013 08:45 PM

I’m not so sure the government is the economy.

It isn’t, however the decisions it makes can often have a very good or an extremely bad effect ON the economy. The current budget battles along with the hue and the cry over who’s going to cut what from where as well as the uncertainty which goes along with it is an example of that.

Think for example, of just the pensioners, be they Social Security recipients or civil service/military retirees along with current employees who are wondering if they are even going to get their benefits or a paycheck. Current employees number 4,403,000 as of 2011. Then count those who get pensions then count those who receive Social Security benefits.

Anybody think that won’t have an effect if that goes away, even for a brief time?

Now factor in the number of private sector industries which are kept afloat by government contracts.

Anybody thing THAT won’t have an effect if it goes away? ( Possibly for good!)

Hmmnn, where does IT make these decisions? In a cave somewhere, up on a mountain?
But better yet….answer just this question EOC.  Why is “govt” making these decisions you say it makes? 
Just answer that question please.

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 4
2