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Same sex marriage
Posted: 29 March 2013 07:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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And everybody deserves to own a house, including those who can’t come up with a down payment, right? No, we wouldn’t want to imply they might be inferior. Good luck with that faith thing, you and Paul and everybody else. I am done here.

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Posted: 29 March 2013 07:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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macgyver - 29 March 2013 06:53 PM

As an aside, I don’t know this with any degree of certainty, but I do believe that same sex parents are already allowed to adopt children.

Yep, we’ve had several adoptions by gay or lesbian couples of infants abandoned by (ahem) heterosexual parents, in my neonatal unit.

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Posted: 29 March 2013 08:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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macgyver - 29 March 2013 06:53 PM
George - 27 March 2013 04:12 AM

I see at least one problem with gays getting married. If you allow them to get married, eventually you’ll have to decide if they should be allowed to adopt children. And this is where I am not sure what the decision should be. It was somebody on this forum who rightly pointed me to the fact that kids growing up surrounded by gays are themselves more likely to turn gay. Why is that? Before we know the answer to that, I would prefer if we could postpone the decision on allowing gays to adopt kids.

This is your quote George. If you are not implying that gay is somehow an inferior outcome than why do we have to wait until we understand why gay parents lead to more gay children ( your contention not mine) before we allow gays to marry and have children? If gay and heterosexual children are to be viewed equally then the cause may be of academic interest but should not have any bearing on whether we give same sex couples the right to adopt kids.

As an aside, I don’t know this with any degree of certainty, but I do believe that same sex parents are already allowed to adopt children.

That’s right, and there are 40,000 children in California alone that are being raised by gay couples.  A lot of those children have been adopted and many of them were among the many children that heterosexual couples didn’t want because they weren’t the “right” color or they had physical or mental “defects”. Not allowing gay couples to adopt meant that the “unadoptable” children we’re relegated to the foster care system or group homes where they often got very poor care and little guidance. 

I should also point out, though it’s a shame that it’s necessary, that a lot of kids being raised by gay couples are children who
are the biological children of one of the gay couple.  Many Lesbian women have had children in a failed marriage to a man and others have chosen to be artificilially inseminated. Some Lesbian couples choose as the sperm donor a brother of the other partner so there is a genetic link between them. Males, too, have children by a failed marriage or a birth while they were dating a woman but were unmarried, just as heterosexual men do. It would be interesting to know if gay men are less likely to abandon their “inconvenient” offspring than heterosexual men are.

I know a gay male couple who adopted a baby who was HIV positive—one that no heterosexual couple wanted.  One of the couple is an MD. The child receives excellent care and is now a healthy and well adjusted 10 year old.  What his fate might have been in the foster care system is anyone’s guess. But, hey, let’s continue to keep gays from adopting and keep the population pure.

Lois

....

[ Edited: 29 March 2013 08:10 PM by Lois ]
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Posted: 29 March 2013 08:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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George - 29 March 2013 07:48 PM

And everybody deserves to own a house, including those who can’t come up with a down payment, right? No, we wouldn’t want to imply they might be inferior. Good luck with that faith thing, you and Paul and everybody else. I am done here.

You’d be surprised at the number of LBGT people who have children before coming ‘out’. These children are still theirs afterward.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 12:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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Lois - 29 March 2013 08:08 PM

Males, too, have children by a failed marriage or a birth while they were dating a woman but were unmarried, just as heterosexual men do. It would be interesting to know if gay men are less likely to abandon their “inconvenient” offspring than heterosexual men are.

 

There’s no reliable objective data on that, but I’ve known a couple of gay men who have kids as a result of forced hetero relationships, and they aren’t involved in the kids’ upbringing - except maybe financially.

Relatively, I would imagine that gay men would be less enthusiastic about children than gay women would.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 08:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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mid atlantic - 30 March 2013 12:07 AM
Lois - 29 March 2013 08:08 PM

Males, too, have children by a failed marriage or a birth while they were dating a woman but were unmarried, just as heterosexual men do. It would be interesting to know if gay men are less likely to abandon their “inconvenient” offspring than heterosexual men are.

 

There’s no reliable objective data on that, but I’ve known a couple of gay men who have kids as a result of forced hetero relationships, and they aren’t involved in the kids’ upbringing - except maybe financially.

Relatively, I would imagine that gay men would be less enthusiastic about children than gay women would.

I don’t know.  It would be an interesting topic of research.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 08:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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I know lots of men and women, mostly my age, who were once married in an attempt to deny their sexuality, and then went on to have the inevitably children…and then failed marriages, most often the ‘hetero’ spouse ended up with full custody, and shut the gay or lesbian spouse out of the child’s life. Thankfully, things are changing now.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 11:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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George - 29 March 2013 07:48 PM

And everybody deserves to own a house, including those who can’t come up with a down payment, right? No, we wouldn’t want to imply they might be inferior. Good luck with that faith thing, you and Paul and everybody else. I am done here.

George, none of what I said was meant as a personal attack. Debates like this are a good opportunity to take a look at your thought processes and see if they are logical. If you think it is less desirable to be gay than to be heterosexual then say so and explain why. That is an entirely separate debate.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 12:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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George - 27 March 2013 04:12 AM

It was somebody on this forum who rightly pointed me to the fact that kids growing up surrounded by gays are themselves more likely to turn gay. Why is that? Before we know the answer to that, I would prefer if we could postpone the decision on allowing gays to adopt kids.

Well, most will say it’s not a choice. I found the interesting article below that seems to be on to something from a medical/scientific standpoint.

http://www.nimbios.org/press/FS_homosexuality

If the orientation of parents set the example for the child, then I should be straight as I was raised my my mother in father who were married and I was not exposed to any gay people as a child or even early teen. Don’t gay people come from straight people?

You seem to imply that homosexual orientation is not only a choice, but a bad one at that. From your previous posts in this thread, you make it sound like adopted children will catch “gay.”

[ Edited: 30 March 2013 09:34 PM by FinallyDecided ]
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Posted: 30 March 2013 05:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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As far as I can tell, the pathogen hypothesis makes the most sense. I obviously don’t believe there is some “gay bug,” but it could very well be some kind of virus that rewires the brain, similarly to what toxo does. I guess the next step would be to figure out if it can be contagious. And that’s pretty much it. I just want to know more before I can decide if gays should be allowed to adopt kids.

[ Edited: 30 March 2013 05:58 PM by George ]
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Posted: 30 March 2013 06:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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George - 30 March 2013 05:38 PM

As far as I can tell, the pathogen hypothesis makes the most sense. I obviously don’t believe there is some “gay bug,” but it could very well be some kind of virus that rewires the brain, similarly to what toxo does. I guess the next step would be to figure out if it can be contagious. And that’s pretty much it. I just want to know more before I can decide if gays should be allowed to adopt kids.

So you think being gay is a disease?

You are ignoring several decades of research showing that children raised in households of two lesbian mothers or two gay fathers have “no higher percentage of gay children” than heterosexual couples. See Gay Parents and Their Children. This will only show the first page, but includes the phrase I quoted here.

If you need any more convincing I’ll try to find time to log into our university library and download some full studies for you. You should go to Google Scholar and search on the phrase “do same sex parents raise gay children.” I did a few minutes ago, and found a plethora of research refuting your concerns.

[ Edited: 30 March 2013 06:36 PM by DarronS ]
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Posted: 30 March 2013 06:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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George - 30 March 2013 05:38 PM

I just want to know more before I can decide if gays should be allowed to adopt kids.

You are waaaay too late. Gays, both single and couples are already adopting kids, and have been for years, mostly kids deemed as otherwise unadoptable. So you are willing to consign these children to a life of serial foster care, bouncing from one home to another, rather than a loving home headed by one or two people who happen to be gay? So you thing the gay parent is a worse choice than foster care because of the possibility of the child growing up to be gay? That makes absolutely no sense. Not to mention, gay couples have been having biological children, in one manner or another forever.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 06:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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George - 30 March 2013 05:38 PM

As far as I can tell, the pathogen hypothesis makes the most sense. I obviously don’t believe there is some “gay bug,” but it could very well be some kind of virus that rewires the brain, similarly to what toxo does. I guess the next step would be to figure out if it can be contagious. And that’s pretty much it. I just want to know more before I can decide if gays should be allowed to adopt kids.

Can I ask what basis you have for believing it is pathogenic and contagious? I am not a medical doctor, but I am in the medical field and pathogens are insidious in nature, which manifest in illnesses with physical signs and measurable lab values. By contagious, do you think a gay person can cough or something similar, thus spreading their homosexuality? And if so, why would this only affect any potential children that would be adopted? Why wouldn’t it affect anyone, to include adults who come in contact with a homosexual. You say you don’t believe there is a “gay bug”, but what do you think a pathogen is? By definition, a gay pathogen would be a “bug” because a pathogen is a virus, bacterium or fungus. So, you think homosexuality is a disease, from what I am gathering. Also, pathogens tend to be very insidious, getting increasingly worse in the host without treatment.

The hypothesis you present is suggesting there is a gay bug. In fact, what you’re presenting might as well just put gay people right back in milieu of the 1950’s and prior:

-Protect the kids from the homosexuals!
-Don’t let the kids around their gay uncle!
-Maybe gays shouldn’t be allowed to be teachers!

And to quote you again, “I just want to know more before I can decide if gays should be allowed to adopt kids.” So, you think you should decide on other peoples families?

I am backing out of this thread. This is ridiculous and insulting. This is an argument that sounds like one that would come from someone 100 years ago.

[ Edited: 30 March 2013 09:34 PM by FinallyDecided ]
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Posted: 30 March 2013 06:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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FinallyDecided - 30 March 2013 06:45 PM

And to quote you again, “I just want to know more before I can decide if gays should be allowed to adopt kids.” So, you think you should decide on other peoples families?

I am backing out of this thread. This is ridiculous and insulting. This is an argument that sounds like one that would come from someone 100 years ago.

Yes, it is. George is usually pretty good at critical thinking, but on this subject he seems to be letting his ideology override his logic.

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Posted: 30 March 2013 10:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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George - 30 March 2013 05:38 PM

As far as I can tell, the pathogen hypothesis makes the most sense. I obviously don’t believe there is some “gay bug,” but it could very well be some kind of virus that rewires the brain, similarly to what toxo does. I guess the next step would be to figure out if it can be contagious. And that’s pretty much it. I just want to know more before I can decide if gays should be allowed to adopt kids.

If there is a pathogen causing homosexuality, it must be not only present in heterosexuals but rampant in heterosexuals.  Nearly every gay person on earth was born to and raised by heterosexuals.  If you are worried about a pathogen causing homosexuality you’d better look for it in the heterosexual community,  perhaps in yourself and your own family.  And maybe you should consider this before you decide whether straight people should be allowed to adopt kids since we know for a fact that gay kids are coming from straight parents.

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