3 of 7
3
Ayn Rand (does not) describe herself and other thoughts regarding Rand
Posted: 16 May 2013 10:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  728
Joined  2012-04-25

Good points but I think you mixed up words a bit. “Rational self interest” means the
opposite of what you describe. It means yes, caring about your own self interest
BUT taking into account the fact that others have just as much right to do the same.
I.e. don’t exclude others, but INCLUDE them in so much as they have the same
rights as you do.  You might say too, that Christians (well fundies at least) and
right wingers go directly against this by employing an Ends Justify The Means
approach. THAT is irrational self interest and AR was against that wholeheartedly.
If you look at the motivation for many of her ideas it was from being raised in an
overbearing Communist society where in her opinion, and in the timeframe she
lived, the State took the place of the religion, and literally forced people to think
only of others, never themselves. It was considered a “sin” to want to think your
own thoughts, have your own dreams, etc.  That’s what she was fighting against.
And I’ll bet many in this forum would disagree with that sentiment too.

[ Edited: 07 June 2013 11:38 PM by Occam. ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 May 2013 10:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3052
Joined  2011-11-04
CuthbertJ - 16 May 2013 10:38 AM

Good points but I think you mixed
up words a bit. “Rational self interest” means the opposite of what you describe.
It means yes, caring about your own self interest BUT taking into account the fact
that others have just as much right to do the same. I.e. don’t exclude others, but
INCLUDE them in so much as they have the same rights as you do… 

And you think that is what AR meant in her alledged laudations of selfishness? 
(I am asking sincerely, as I do not know much about her.)

[ Edited: 07 June 2013 11:39 PM by Occam. ]
 Signature 

As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 May 2013 10:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  728
Joined  2012-04-25
TimB - 16 May 2013 10:58 AM
CuthbertJ - 16 May 2013 10:38 AM

Good points but I think you mixed up words a bit. “Rational self interest” means the opposite of what you describe. It means yes, caring about your own self interest BUT taking into account the fact that others have just as much right to do the same. I.e. don’t exclude others, but INCLUDE them in so much as they have the same rights as you do… 

And you think that is what AR meant in her alledged laudations of selfishness?  (I am asking sincerely, as I do not know much about her.)

Yes that’s what she meant. And it’s also why it’s a very difficult concept to grasp, not made any easier because she used the term “selfishness” so often.  It really boiled down to her abject hatred for the State claiming not just the need (like might occur during war) but the right to enslave people’s mind. And then extending the idea to hatred for any organization or even person to claim that right. So for example she hated religion, since it claimed in it’s own way the right to subjugate people to the church. (It’s also why it’s so stupid when you hear righties, who tend to be very religious, claim to love AR’s ideas)

Now she also has many many more ideas where she tries to ground all this in philosophy and sort of make it all inter-related. This is where things start to get fishy, but IMO no more so than many so-called “great” philosophers like Kant et al.  They all for the most part just expressed personal opinions in the semi-scientific/semi-logical jargon of philosophy.  Some were just smarter than others and did it better wink IMHO of course.

[ Edited: 17 May 2013 10:34 AM by CuthbertJ ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 May 2013 08:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4134
Joined  2010-08-15
CuthbertJ - 16 May 2013 10:38 AM

Good points but I think you mixed up words a bit. “Rational self interest” means the opposite of what you describe. It means yes, caring about your own self interest BUT taking into account the fact that others have just as much right to do the same. I.e. don’t exclude others, but INCLUDE them in so much as they have the same rights as you do.

This makes it sound like it’s all about bleeding heart sympathies and caring about the other’s feelings and stuff like that…
.. not that I’m discounting the place for that.

Still, I always thought about “Rational self interest” more along the lines of:

It’s in my “rational self-interest” to spend the extra time and effort to do a really first class job for someone… because it’s good for my reputation and will lead to more work, {plus it makes me feel good}.

... Or, it’s in my “rational self-interest” to pay my employee’s a living wage, so that they will be able to afford the “luxury” items we manufacture.

... Or, it’s in our collective rational self-interest not destroy our biosphere, because we and our society absolutely depend on our healthy biosphere just the way it is.

 Signature 

How many times do lies need to be exposed
before we have permission to trash them?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 May 2013 10:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  728
Joined  2012-04-25

I would think AR would agree with your definitions.  You’re right though that it *can* sound overly bleeding heart. She’d probably not go to that length, but more to the point of “taking into account the rights of others”.  I think she hated the hippies for example, but for other reasons.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 June 2013 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1071
Joined  2007-06-20
citizenschallenge.pm - 05 April 2013 06:08 PM

Well, here’s her quote:

“I am a mediocre writer, hypocrite and a sociopath.

My disciples are ignorant deluded hypocritical sociopaths too.”

Alisa Zinov’yevna Rosembaum

AKA Ayn Rand

Source, please?

 Signature 

There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 June 2013 02:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4134
Joined  2010-08-15
Rocinante - 06 June 2013 01:40 PM
citizenschallenge.pm - 05 April 2013 06:08 PM

Well, here’s her quote:

“I am a mediocre writer, hypocrite and a sociopath.

My disciples are ignorant deluded hypocritical sociopaths too.”

Alisa Zinov’yevna Rosembaum

AKA Ayn Rand

Source, please?

Who the hell cares by this point, it’s probably in one of those links I shared in the opening post.
{Usually I do better, but I don’t have the time or interest to search it out now,
but I’m sure it’s wouldn’t be too hard to track down if you wanted to.}


How about something worth thinking about?

citizenschallenge.pm - 22 April 2013 04:31 PM
CuthbertJ - 16 April 2013 10:27 AM

DarronS - that’s your opinion nothing more, and a very condescending one at that (and inaccurate). Personally, back in the day I was extremely well read, on my way to a PhD in Philosophy and found her novels excellent, couldn’t put them down.

OK, then…
Please share some examples of anything Ayn wrote - worth spending a lot of time pondering.

 Signature 

How many times do lies need to be exposed
before we have permission to trash them?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 June 2013 03:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1071
Joined  2007-06-20
citizenschallenge.pm - 07 June 2013 02:56 PM

Who the hell cares by this point, it’s probably in one of those links I shared in the opening post…but I’m sure it’s wouldn’t be too hard to track down if you wanted to.}

One should care because it goes to the heart of the very discussion. 

And I searched your links and I couldn’t find the quote in any of them.  I also tried Google and other search engines but couldn’t find it.  You had to get it from somewhere.  I just want to know where it came from.  That’s a legitimate request.  I’ve tried, but can’t find it.

 Signature 

There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 June 2013 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4134
Joined  2010-08-15

OK,
It was emailed to me and it took a while to find here’s the URL

https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/?ui=2&ik=6cd95e300f&view=att&th=13ddaf1643f4cd83&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=f_hf5jn4qo0&safe=1&zw;&saduie;=AG9B_P9oqPqoLq8nOygxw4T1G9lS&sadet=1370648522942&sads=i1ySkq1u42TCYn0e6s9cXaYW7Fo


====
72599_523168684391987_941481841_n[1].jpg

 Signature 

How many times do lies need to be exposed
before we have permission to trash them?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 June 2013 04:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4134
Joined  2010-08-15

OK now, can we get back to this:

Please share some examples of anything Ayn wrote - worth spending a lot of time pondering?

 Signature 

How many times do lies need to be exposed
before we have permission to trash them?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 June 2013 04:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1071
Joined  2007-06-20

That link just goes to the GMail sign in page.

 Signature 

There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 June 2013 05:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1071
Joined  2007-06-20
citizenschallenge.pm - 07 June 2013 04:48 PM

OK now, can we get back to this:

Please share some examples of anything Ayn wrote - worth spending a lot of time pondering?

We can’t “get back” to anything, since the main thrust of this discussion has not been answered.  And that is the source of the quote you originally posted.  I realize you don’t like her.  Fine.  I get it.  Some do.  Some don’t.  Everyone has their opinion.  That’s not the point here.  The point is the quote you posted.  I just want to know where it came from, because I can’t seem to find it.  Michael Shermer did a critique of Ayn Rand in his book, Why People Believe Weird Things and I don’t recall seeing that quote in there.  You would think he would have included it.  And the only thing Google comes up with is your original post, but nowhere else.

 Signature 

There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 June 2013 05:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3052
Joined  2011-11-04

Will whoever’s post extended the formatting out too wide, please fix it?

 Signature 

As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 June 2013 11:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5551
Joined  2010-06-16

I know what you mean, Tim.  It drives me crazy. too.  I believe it was Cuthbert’s May 16
post where he apparently lifted what he wrote in his word processer and copied it here. 
Since it didn’t have hard returns, it went way beyond the right margin.  I tried editing it,
but since I can’t edit signatures to put in returns, your “our lives are . . .” also went
wide so I couldn’t get things back to within the standard margins.

Occam

[ Edited: 07 June 2013 11:49 PM by Occam. ]
 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 08 June 2013 04:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1071
Joined  2007-06-20
citizenschallenge.pm - 07 June 2013 04:48 PM

Please share some examples of anything Ayn wrote - worth spending a lot of time pondering?

Well, the original quote you provided would warrant some pondering, if only we knew its source.  Until then:

“...the alleged short-cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only a short-circuit destroying the mind…”

—Ayn Rand, For the New Intellectual

“For centuries, the mystics of spirit had existed by running a protection racket - by making life on earth unbearable, then charging you for consolation and relief, by forbidding all the virtues that make existence possible, then riding on the shoulders of your guilt, by declaring production and joy to be sins, then collecting blackmail from the sinners.”

—Ayn Rand, For the New Intellectual

There I posted some examples of something Ayn wrote I consider worth pondering.  Please note, I did something you haven’t done.  I also listed where they can be found.  You have yet to provide a source for the very basis of this thread.  I’m still waiting.  Per Ayn’s first quote, I won’t just take it on faith.  grin  I want to know where the quote originally came from.

 Signature 

There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

Profile
 
 
   
3 of 7
3