23 of 25
23
Gun control - again
Posted: 15 June 2013 09:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 331 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4140
Joined  2008-08-14
Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 08:59 PM

I’ll bottom line it for you Vy, there’s no way that anyone of us will EVER bring a deadly weapon into our classrooms that could potentially harm one of our students. we’re all concerned that this madness may happen again but bringing a gun into a class? I can only imagine the tension and stress it would cause, not just the teachers but the kids as well. Proponents haven’t thought out the psychological implications that would result from knowing that a teacher is armed. Would the students feel safer knowing that I had a gun in my drawer, or on my hip? Hell no! But they would feel intimidated and in no mood to learn U.S. history. it would totally upset the relationship and trust between teacher and student. Guns belong in the field or on the range; they don’t belng in schools.


Cap’t Jack

Yeah, well said.  There’s that too.  It’s absolutely bonkers that this is even being considered. I’m telling ya, it’s years of Hollywood conditioning.
People think we are living in a movie. The points you mention right here are the reality of it. What you say here are the facts.

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2013 01:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 332 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7641
Joined  2008-04-11
Lois - 14 June 2013 05:58 PM

There are a lot of ifs, ands and buts in that. Who’s to say the next nut will do it the same way? And who’s to say the teacher won’t become immobilized with panic and be unable to do anything? You can make all kinds of plans but you can’t know what anyone will do when there’s a gun being held on him or her or on a classful of students, or wnen people are being shot in front of the teacher, no matter how easy it might be to access a gun in theory.

What’s to say the teacher won’t ‘lose it’,having had a particularly pissy day, and decide to shoot a particularly annoying teen, because we know teens are experts at being annoying…

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2013 01:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 333 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  582
Joined  2010-04-19
Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 08:59 PM

I’ll bottom line it for you Vy, there’s no way that anyone of us will EVER bring a deadly weapon into our classrooms that could potentially harm one of our students. we’re all concerned that this madness may happen again but bringing a gun into a class? I can only imagine the tension and stress it would cause, not just the teachers but the kids as well. Proponents haven’t thought out the psychological implications that would result from knowing that a teacher is armed. Would the students feel safer knowing that I had a gun in my drawer, or on my hip? Hell no! But they would feel intimidated and in no mood to learn U.S. history. it would totally upset the relationship and trust between teacher and student. Guns belong in the field or on the range; they don’t belng in schools.
Cap’t Jack

Purely cultural. If you live in a society where such a thing is normal, then you won’t have a problem paying attention to your U.S. History.

 Signature 

Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2013 01:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 334 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7641
Joined  2008-04-11
LogicMan - 15 June 2013 10:24 AM

But at least it gives the teachers and administrators somewhat of a fighting chance, as opposed to being completely at the mercy of the shooter. It like having fire extinguishers in your home. Doesn’t mean if a fire breaks out, that all will be well, but it gives you a chance to possibly put out the fire, as opposed to it breaking out and you being unable to do anything.

I had a few Cuckoo teachers in HS I wouldn’t trust with a pet dog…an actual gun would have been out of the question. You can be mentally ill and still function somewhat competently as a teacher…..add a gun to the mix, and you are very likely to get a disaster.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2013 03:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 335 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2583
Joined  2011-04-24
Cloak - 16 June 2013 01:25 AM
Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 08:59 PM

I’ll bottom line it for you Vy, there’s no way that anyone of us will EVER bring a deadly weapon into our classrooms that could potentially harm one of our students. we’re all concerned that this madness may happen again but bringing a gun into a class? I can only imagine the tension and stress it would cause, not just the teachers but the kids as well. Proponents haven’t thought out the psychological implications that would result from knowing that a teacher is armed. Would the students feel safer knowing that I had a gun in my drawer, or on my hip? Hell no! But they would feel intimidated and in no mood to learn U.S. history. it would totally upset the relationship and trust between teacher and student. Guns belong in the field or on the range; they don’t belng in schools.
Cap’t Jack

Purely cultural. If you live in a society where such a thing is normal, then you won’t have a problem paying attention to your U.S. History.

I’m confused.

Cloak, are you implying that there was a time in US history when armed teachers were the norm?

 Signature 

Raise your glass if you’re wrong…. in all the right ways.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2013 03:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 336 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2583
Joined  2011-04-24
asanta - 16 June 2013 01:26 AM
LogicMan - 15 June 2013 10:24 AM

But at least it gives the teachers and administrators somewhat of a fighting chance, as opposed to being completely at the mercy of the shooter. It like having fire extinguishers in your home. Doesn’t mean if a fire breaks out, that all will be well, but it gives you a chance to possibly put out the fire, as opposed to it breaking out and you being unable to do anything.

I had a few Cuckoo teachers in HS I wouldn’t trust with a pet dog…an actual gun would have been out of the question. You can be mentally ill and still function somewhat competently as a teacher…..add a gun to the mix, and you are very likely to get a disaster.

Agreed, some of my high school experiences immediately make me wary of armed teachers.

 Signature 

Raise your glass if you’re wrong…. in all the right ways.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2013 04:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 337 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  582
Joined  2010-04-19
mid atlantic - 16 June 2013 03:21 AM
Cloak - 16 June 2013 01:25 AM
Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 08:59 PM

I’ll bottom line it for you Vy, there’s no way that anyone of us will EVER bring a deadly weapon into our classrooms that could potentially harm one of our students. we’re all concerned that this madness may happen again but bringing a gun into a class? I can only imagine the tension and stress it would cause, not just the teachers but the kids as well. Proponents haven’t thought out the psychological implications that would result from knowing that a teacher is armed. Would the students feel safer knowing that I had a gun in my drawer, or on my hip? Hell no! But they would feel intimidated and in no mood to learn U.S. history. it would totally upset the relationship and trust between teacher and student. Guns belong in the field or on the range; they don’t belng in schools.
Cap’t Jack

Purely cultural. If you live in a society where such a thing is normal, then you won’t have a problem paying attention to your U.S. History.

I’m confused.

Cloak, are you implying that there was a time in US history when armed teachers were the norm?

No, I’m just saying that the argument that it would be too difficult to focus in class if one knew that the teacher was “strapped” only applies to a culture that is not used to it. If my children grew up in such schools where it was the norm, they would have no problem focusing on the lessons because they wouldn’t see it as a big deal.

 Signature 

Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2013 06:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 338 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2240
Joined  2012-10-27
Cloak - 16 June 2013 04:11 AM
mid atlantic - 16 June 2013 03:21 AM
Cloak - 16 June 2013 01:25 AM
Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 08:59 PM

I’ll bottom line it for you Vy, there’s no way that anyone of us will EVER bring a deadly weapon into our classrooms that could potentially harm one of our students. we’re all concerned that this madness may happen again but bringing a gun into a class? I can only imagine the tension and stress it would cause, not just the teachers but the kids as well. Proponents haven’t thought out the psychological implications that would result from knowing that a teacher is armed. Would the students feel safer knowing that I had a gun in my drawer, or on my hip? Hell no! But they would feel intimidated and in no mood to learn U.S. history. it would totally upset the relationship and trust between teacher and student. Guns belong in the field or on the range; they don’t belng in schools.
Cap’t Jack

Purely cultural. If you live in a society where such a thing is normal, then you won’t have a problem paying attention to your U.S. History.

I’m confused.

Cloak, are you implying that there was a time in US history when armed teachers were the norm?

No, I’m just saying that the argument that it would be too difficult to focus in class if one knew that the teacher was “strapped” only applies to a culture that is not used to it. If my children grew up in such schools where it was the norm, they would have no problem focusing on the lessons because they wouldn’t see it as a big deal.

Then your kids would have been dangerous. Anyone who doesn’t see the presence of a gun as dangerous has been brainwashed into a state of denial. They are zombies.

Lois

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2013 10:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 339 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  582
Joined  2010-04-19
Lois - 16 June 2013 06:52 AM
Cloak - 16 June 2013 04:11 AM
mid atlantic - 16 June 2013 03:21 AM
Cloak - 16 June 2013 01:25 AM
Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 08:59 PM

I’ll bottom line it for you Vy, there’s no way that anyone of us will EVER bring a deadly weapon into our classrooms that could potentially harm one of our students. we’re all concerned that this madness may happen again but bringing a gun into a class? I can only imagine the tension and stress it would cause, not just the teachers but the kids as well. Proponents haven’t thought out the psychological implications that would result from knowing that a teacher is armed. Would the students feel safer knowing that I had a gun in my drawer, or on my hip? Hell no! But they would feel intimidated and in no mood to learn U.S. history. it would totally upset the relationship and trust between teacher and student. Guns belong in the field or on the range; they don’t belng in schools.
Cap’t Jack

Purely cultural. If you live in a society where such a thing is normal, then you won’t have a problem paying attention to your U.S. History.

I’m confused.

Cloak, are you implying that there was a time in US history when armed teachers were the norm?

No, I’m just saying that the argument that it would be too difficult to focus in class if one knew that the teacher was “strapped” only applies to a culture that is not used to it. If my children grew up in such schools where it was the norm, they would have no problem focusing on the lessons because they wouldn’t see it as a big deal.

Then your kids would have been dangerous. Anyone who doesn’t see the presence of a gun as dangerous has been brainwashed into a state of denial. They are zombies.

Lois

I understand that you are really passionate about this issue, but I really don’t see a point in responding to comments that amount to nothing more than an emotional outburst.

 Signature 

Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2013 11:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 340 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  180
Joined  2013-05-17
Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 06:21 PM

You’re nitpicking again LM. Hollywood is fantasy; I’m pretty certain that most people know that glass isn’t completely bulletproof. It’s an expression. Armor piercing bullets would penetrate it after a few rounds. So what?

I would disagree that most people know that. Also, “armor-piercing” ammunition doesn’t not easily penetrate armor the way Hollywood makes out either.

It would take more time to destroy than regular glass panes. That’s not the point. the delay could give that extra time to react to the gunman. And what is the difference in your statement that it would cost less to arm teachers (who’s paying for those $400.00 Glocks BTW) than to better prepare a school building and the word cheaper? Again, nitpicking. Also, I only mentioned a few examples of how to better prepare a school; another would be funneling all traffic to one secure entrance while installing one way doors with inside bolt locks. Our school was outfitted with them when it was built, plus a closed circuit camera system and monitors covering all entrances and hallways, which once again, was put in place when the school was built.

And I said if you can do that kind of stuff where guns in the school aren’t needed, go for it. But I don’t know which is cheaper.

Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 06:35 PM

I don’t know any overweight police officers LM. All of the cops around here ( state, county and village)  have to pass an annual physical plus a range test to qualify. Sounds like you’re watching too many of those Hollywood movies you mentioned.

Oh no. Trust me, there are some tubby police officers out there! I’ve seen enough of them. Standards vary from police department to police department throughout the country.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2013 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 341 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  180
Joined  2013-05-17
VYAZMA - 15 June 2013 08:33 PM

Has anyone thought about how arming school faculty could be more of an incentive for these mass shooters?
Given their usual suicidal tendencies.  It seems like it’s almost egging more of them to come out of the woodwork.
And of course it would be tragedy even further amplified.
How have we gotten to this?  People advocating arming teachers….
It certainly would NOT be any kind of deterrent, and the end result could wind up being so much more heinous.
Tasking an educator with the responsibility and the possibility of shooting someone is headed in the exact opposite direction that we should be going.

This makes no sense. You are going by the philosophy that the way to deter aggression is through being defenseless, and that by being able to defend, this will only incite aggression. That is not ever how it works, not in the animal kingdom, not with mass shooters. For one, almost all mass shootings have occurred in so-called “gun free zones.” These mass shooters are suicidal only in that they kill themselves to avoid going to prison, but they want to make a statement first, i.e. kill lots of people. They aren’t going to try that in a place where they are likely to get overpowered. Look at Adam Lanza. He was a tiny kid. So what target did he choose? A school filled with little children with a mostly female staff (or all female staff) that was labeled as a “gun free zone.” In other words, he chose the easiest target possible.

These mass shooters are not stupid. They are broken, insane, and evil, but often highly intelligent. And how would it be “tragedy further amplified?” How would the end result be “so much more heinous?” If the end result is someone can shoot back at a shooter as opposed to being completely defenseless and everyone gets killed, I’d take the result where someone can shoot back.

VYAZMA - 15 June 2013 09:19 PM

Yeah, well said.  There’s that too.  It’s absolutely bonkers that this is even being considered. I’m telling ya, it’s years of Hollywood conditioning.
People think we are living in a movie. The points you mention right here are the reality of it. What you say here are the facts.

IMO, it’s bonkers to me that so many are afraid of something that is a tool that allows them to have somewhat of a chance to stop a shooter and not be defenseless. It hasn’t anything to do with Hollywood.

[ Edited: 16 June 2013 11:56 AM by LogicMan ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2013 11:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 342 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  180
Joined  2013-05-17
Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 08:59 PM

I’ll bottom line it for you Vy, there’s no way that anyone of us will EVER bring a deadly weapon into our classrooms that could potentially harm one of our students. we’re all concerned that this madness may happen again but bringing a gun into a class? I can only imagine the tension and stress it would cause, not just the teachers but the kids as well. Proponents haven’t thought out the psychological implications that would result from knowing that a teacher is armed. Would the students feel safer knowing that I had a gun in my drawer, or on my hip? Hell no! But they would feel intimidated and in no mood to learn U.S. history. it would totally upset the relationship and trust between teacher and student. Guns belong in the field or on the range; they don’t belng in schools.

Cap’t Jack

You sound like a hoplophobic. You have a ruler in the classroom that you could thwack the students with but they don’t fear you possibly doing that. I also think the students, so long as they trusted the teacher, would feel plenty safe if they knew the teacher was armed. Children are not so stupid that they judge a person solely by a weapon. If they are afraid of a teacher who has access to a gun, then it is for reasons separate from the gun itself. If they are not afraid of, and trust, the teacher, then they are not going to fear the teacher having access to a firearm.

[ Edited: 16 June 2013 12:23 PM by LogicMan ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2013 11:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 343 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  180
Joined  2013-05-17
Lois - 16 June 2013 06:52 AM

Then your kids would have been dangerous. Anyone who doesn’t see the presence of a gun as dangerous has been brainwashed into a state of denial. They are zombies.

Lois

It sounds like it is yourself that is brainwashed here. You have an irrational fear of weapons. Cloak is correct that in cultures where people grow up around guns, there is no fear about them. They are just seen as tools, nothing more.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2013 12:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 344 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7641
Joined  2008-04-11
LogicMan - 16 June 2013 11:51 AM

You sound like a hoplophobic. You have a ruler in the classroom that you could thwack the students with but they don’t fear that. I also think the students, so long as they trusted the teacher, would feel plenty safe if they knew the teacher was armed. Children are not so stupid that they judge a person solely by a weapon. If they are afraid of a teacher who has access to a gun, then it is for reasons separate from the gun itself. If they are not afraid of, and trust, the teacher, then they are not going to fear the teacher having access to a firearm.

A teacher ‘thwacking’ a child in my state, would be disciplined, if not fired.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2013 12:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 345 ]
Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  180
Joined  2013-05-17
asanta - 16 June 2013 12:01 PM

A teacher ‘thwacking’ a child in my state, would be disciplined, if not fired.

Of course. I didn’t mean that a teacher is allowed to do so, but that they could do so if they got mad enough at the student. But students don’t fear the teacher because of the presence of the ruler. So I do not see how they’d fear the same teacher all of a sudden with access to a gun. Now if they did fear the teacher as being physically abusive, then I could fully understand them fearing said teacher with access to a firearm, but again their fear is for reasons separate from the weapon itself.

Profile
 
 
   
23 of 25
23
 
‹‹ Korea      Rand Paul at Howard U. ››