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Gun control - again
Posted: 16 June 2013 11:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 346 ]
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LogicMan - 16 June 2013 11:48 AM

This makes no sense. You are going by the philosophy that the way to deter aggression is through being defenseless, and that by being able to defend, this will only incite aggression. That is not ever how it works, not in the animal kingdom, not with mass shooters. For one, almost all mass shootings have occurred in so-called “gun free zones.” These mass shooters are suicidal only in that they kill themselves to avoid going to prison, but they want to make a statement first, i.e. kill lots of people. They aren’t going to try that in a place where they are likely to get overpowered. Look at Adam Lanza. He was a tiny kid. So what target did he choose? A school filled with little children with a mostly female staff (or all female staff) that was labeled as a “gun free zone.” In other words, he chose the easiest target possible.

These mass shooters are not stupid. They are broken, insane, and evil, but often highly intelligent. And how would it be “tragedy further amplified?” How would the end result be “so much more heinous?” If the end result is someone can shoot back at a shooter as opposed to being completely defenseless and everyone gets killed, I’d take the result where someone can shoot back.

 

Eh, this still doesn’t justify armed teachers. A police presence on school grounds, metal detectors, a bookbag ban, etc. would be better.

Your comments about Lanza could be accurate, however.

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Posted: 16 June 2013 11:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 347 ]
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LogicMan - 16 June 2013 11:51 AM
Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 08:59 PM

I’ll bottom line it for you Vy, there’s no way that anyone of us will EVER bring a deadly weapon into our classrooms that could potentially harm one of our students. we’re all concerned that this madness may happen again but bringing a gun into a class? I can only imagine the tension and stress it would cause, not just the teachers but the kids as well. Proponents haven’t thought out the psychological implications that would result from knowing that a teacher is armed. Would the students feel safer knowing that I had a gun in my drawer, or on my hip? Hell no! But they would feel intimidated and in no mood to learn U.S. history. it would totally upset the relationship and trust between teacher and student. Guns belong in the field or on the range; they don’t belng in schools.

Cap’t Jack

You sound like a hoplophobic. You have a ruler in the classroom that you could thwack the students with but they don’t fear you possibly doing that. I also think the students, so long as they trusted the teacher, would feel plenty safe if they knew the teacher was armed. Children are not so stupid that they judge a person solely by a weapon. If they are afraid of a teacher who has access to a gun, then it is for reasons separate from the gun itself. If they are not afraid of, and trust, the teacher, then they are not going to fear the teacher having access to a firearm.

In public schools, students can be hit with rulers?

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Posted: 17 June 2013 08:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 348 ]
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mid atlantic - 16 June 2013 11:20 PM
LogicMan - 16 June 2013 11:51 AM
Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 08:59 PM

I’ll bottom line it for you Vy, there’s no way that anyone of us will EVER bring a deadly weapon into our classrooms that could potentially harm one of our students. we’re all concerned that this madness may happen again but bringing a gun into a class? I can only imagine the tension and stress it would cause, not just the teachers but the kids as well. Proponents haven’t thought out the psychological implications that would result from knowing that a teacher is armed. Would the students feel safer knowing that I had a gun in my drawer, or on my hip? Hell no! But they would feel intimidated and in no mood to learn U.S. history. it would totally upset the relationship and trust between teacher and student. Guns belong in the field or on the range; they don’t belng in schools.

Cap’t Jack

You sound like a hoplophobic. You have a ruler in the classroom that you could thwack the students with but they don’t fear you possibly doing that. I also think the students, so long as they trusted the teacher, would feel plenty safe if they knew the teacher was armed. Children are not so stupid that they judge a person solely by a weapon. If they are afraid of a teacher who has access to a gun, then it is for reasons separate from the gun itself. If they are not afraid of, and trust, the teacher, then they are not going to fear the teacher having access to a firearm.

In public schools, students can be hit with rulers?

Many of them still do paddling, I believe.

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Posted: 17 June 2013 09:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 349 ]
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LogicMan-This makes no sense. You are going by the philosophy that the way to deter aggression is through being defenseless, and that by being able to defend, this will only incite aggression.

Yes, yes that is exactly what the most readily available recourse is in this situation.  I’m sure you want everyone to think it would be a deterrent to arm teachers. Arming teachers won’t be a deterrent for these whackos..I predict it will be an incentive for more whackos.

That is not ever how it works, not in the animal kingdom, not with mass shooters. For one, almost all mass shootings have occurred in so-called “gun free zones.”

Yes, I’m well aware of the propaganda about gun-free zones from the right wing gun nut whackos. 
Newsflash for ya…Animals in the “animal kingdom” don’t commit suicide.  They don’t declare suicide by cop.  They won’t be declaring suicide by teacher either.
That’s exactly how it works with mass shooters many times.


These mass shooters are suicidal only in that they kill themselves to avoid going to prison, but they want to make a statement first, i.e. kill lots of people.

Oh, is that something you just figured was true?

They aren’t going to try that in a place where they are likely to get overpowered.

More from the Motion Picture of your mind here.  How much insight do you have into the mind of someone who is totally insane?

Look at Adam Lanza. He was a tiny kid. So what target did he choose? A school filled with little children with a mostly female staff (or all female staff) that was labeled as a “gun free zone.” In other words, he chose the easiest target possible.

I don’t know what he “chose”!  Other than the fact that he chose a semi-automatic weapon with a magazine capacity of over 10 rounds.  An assault weapon!
I’m sure he chose that to make up for his small build.

These mass shooters are not stupid. They are broken, insane, and evil, but often highly intelligent. And how would it be “tragedy further amplified?” How would the end result be “so much more heinous?”

Uh…scared teacher shoots wrong kids.  Scared teacher doesn’t get gun, get’s killed. Teacher with gun gets shot by police accidentally. Teacher with gun is ironically
first one killed.  Teacher misses target, kills innocent kids.  Teacher panics trying to open gun safe, found dead at the foot of said safe.
There’s some ways it could be more heinous.

If the end result is someone can shoot back at a shooter as opposed to being completely defenseless and everyone gets killed, I’d take the result where someone can shoot back.

Just like in the movies right?

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Posted: 17 June 2013 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 350 ]
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mid atlantic - 16 June 2013 11:19 PM

Eh, this still doesn’t justify armed teachers. A police presence on school grounds, metal detectors, a bookbag ban, etc. would be better.

Your comments about Lanza could be accurate, however.

Keep in mind, I am not advocating forcibly arming teachers, just that teachers who choose to be armed have the opportunity. Armed security, metal detectors, etc…are all fine as well.

mid atlantic - 16 June 2013 11:20 PM

In public schools, students can be hit with rulers?

No. But if the students would suddenly be terrified of a teacher because that teacher had access to a firearm, why would they not also be terrified of the teacher thwacking them with something like a ruler?

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Posted: 17 June 2013 12:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 351 ]
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VYAZMA - 17 June 2013 09:09 AM

Yes, yes that is exactly what the most readily available recourse is in this situation.  I’m sure you want everyone to think it would be a deterrent to arm teachers. Arming teachers won’t be a deterrent for these whackos..I predict it will be an incentive for more whackos.

Never happens. Whether it’s wild animals or the U.S. dealing with the Soviet Union, ability to defend always deters aggression. You don’t see these mass shooters choosing to shoot up police stations, they instead go for the “gun free zones.” If you think a whacko would be incentivized to attack a school because of armed teachers and thus having some glorified shootout, they wouldn’t bother with the school at all, they’d attack a police station or an IRS building or something like that.

Yes, I’m well aware of the propaganda about gun-free zones from the right wing gun nut whackos. 
Newsflash for ya…Animals in the “animal kingdom” don’t commit suicide.  They don’t declare suicide by cop.  They won’t be declaring suicide by teacher either.
That’s exactly how it works with mass shooters many times.

So what if they don’t commit suicide? These mass shooters are often very sane within the planning they do for how to do their mass shooting. They are insane in that they are mass murderers. I am not sure what propaganda you speak of regarding gun free zones. The only argument for a gun free zone is that if there are guns present, someone may lose their temper/go insane and start shooting people. That virtually never happens. It is far more likely that by having a “gun free zone,” you have disarmed everyone and thus created a ripe target for someone truly insane to just go and bring a gun right into the building and start shooting everyone.

Oh, is that something you just figured was true?

Nope. But it seems not everyone has.

More from the Motion Picture of your mind here.  How much insight do you have into the mind of someone who is totally insane?

So…why do all of these mass shooters go to gun-free zones then? And insane doesn’t mean stupid. Most all murders, rapists, etc…are a form of insane, but it doesn’t mean that they don’t take their own survival into account with regards to things.

I don’t know what he “chose”!  Other than the fact that he chose a semi-automatic weapon with a magazine capacity of over 10 rounds.  An assault weapon!
I’m sure he chose that to make up for his small build.

I have explained to you what he chose. And that’s your definition of an “assault weapon.”

Uh…scared teacher shoots wrong kids.  Scared teacher doesn’t get gun, get’s killed. Teacher with gun gets shot by police accidentally. Teacher with gun is ironically
first one killed.  Teacher misses target, kills innocent kids.  Teacher panics trying to open gun safe, found dead at the foot of said safe.
There’s some ways it could be more heinous.

....except that the alternative is everyone gets killed, which is why this still makes no sense. By your logic, allowing any of the teachers to have been armed at Sandy Hook would have been too dangerous, because one of them might have been killed, or they might have accidentally shot a student while shooting at a mass shooter. So by not being armed, they ALL were killed. That is what is heinous.

Just like in the movies right?

No, just like in reality. And your default “just like in the movies” line seems to be a way to avoid the faulty logic in your reasoning.

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Posted: 17 June 2013 11:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 352 ]
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LogicMan - 17 June 2013 12:02 PM

No. But if the students would suddenly be terrified of a teacher because that teacher had access to a firearm, why would they not also be terrified of the teacher thwacking them with something like a ruler?

Firearms are more intimidating then rulers.

But that’s just me.

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Posted: 17 June 2013 11:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 353 ]
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mid atlantic - 17 June 2013 11:05 PM
LogicMan - 17 June 2013 12:02 PM

No. But if the students would suddenly be terrified of a teacher because that teacher had access to a firearm, why would they not also be terrified of the teacher thwacking them with something like a ruler?

Firearms are more intimidating then rulers.

But that’s just me.

If the mean teacher holding the ruler was Bruce Lee, I’d be intimidated….

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Posted: 21 June 2013 05:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 354 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 15 June 2013 06:35 PM
I don’t know any overweight police officers LM. All of the cops around here ( state, county and village)  have to pass an annual physical plus a range test to qualify. Sounds like you’re watching too many of those Hollywood movies you mentioned.

Oh no. Trust me, there are some tubby police officers out there! I’ve seen enough of them. Standards vary from police department to police department throughout the country.

And I presume then that you have done a detailed study of the dietary standards of police departments throughout the country? Then I could just as easily state that there are strict standards of weight requirements for police departments. Ever seen a “tubby” swat team, or State police officer? A mall cop maybe?

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 21 June 2013 05:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 355 ]
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Lois - 14 June 2013 05:58 PM
There are a lot of ifs, ands and buts in that. Who’s to say the next nut will do it the same way? And who’s to say the teacher won’t become immobilized with panic and be unable to do anything? You can make all kinds of plans but you can’t know what anyone will do when there’s a gun being held on him or her or on a classful of students, or wnen people are being shot in front of the teacher, no matter how easy it might be to access a gun in theory.

What’s to say the teacher won’t ‘lose it’,having had a particularly pissy day, and decide to shoot a particularly annoying teen, because we know teens are experts at being annoying…

Statistics Asanta. As I said, everybody has pissy days and there are people in the classrooms who shouldn’t be there because they have the mistaken impression about teaching; that it’s easy or a gateway to something else. And BTW hitting a kid with ANYTHING can get you canned or at worse taken to court. Most teacher’s take “in loco parentis” seriously and want to see their students succeed. Those who are continuously pissy eventually weed themselves out or pursuaded to leave. School districts are being held more and more accountable for student performance and as attempting to tie salaries to performance.


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Posted: 21 June 2013 05:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 356 ]
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You sound like a hoplophobic. You have a ruler in the classroom that you could thwack the students with but they don’t fear you possibly doing that. I also think the students, so long as they trusted the teacher, would feel plenty safe if they knew the teacher was armed. Children are not so stupid that they judge a person solely by a weapon. If they are afraid of a teacher who has access to a gun, then it is for reasons separate from the gun itself. If they are not afraid of, and trust, the teacher, then they are not going to fear the teacher having access to a firearm.

Man, you haven’t been reading my posts! Keep up LM. I probably own more guns than you do. As I stated to Asanta, teachers can’t hit, prod or even touch a kid with ANY object so no they don’t fear the teacher who is there to educate them. School policies are in place to discipline a student so that the others may learn without disruption and this includes removing a kid from the class. I am a trusted teacher and I would never bring a loaded firearm into the classroom. And I can assure you from personal experience that kids are intimidated by a loaded weapon as evidenced by our liaison officer when he steps into my room. Hell, it even intimidates me even though I know the guy. And you’re right about one thing, kids aren’t stupid. They know the weapon is loaded and they act accordingly, by being intimidated.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 21 June 2013 02:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 357 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 21 June 2013 05:23 AM

And I presume then that you have done a detailed study of the dietary standards of police departments throughout the country? Then I could just as easily state that there are strict standards of weight requirements for police departments. Ever seen a “tubby” swat team, or State police officer? A mall cop maybe?

Cap’t Jack

SWAT teams are not necessarily all that well-trained at certain police departments either. It depends on the department. And while I haven’t done any detailed study of police department weight requirements, I have seen enough overweight police officers in my life.

Thevillageatheist - 21 June 2013 05:46 AM

[Man, you haven’t been reading my posts! Keep up LM. I probably own more guns than you do. As I stated to Asanta, teachers can’t hit, prod or even touch a kid with ANY object so no they don’t fear the teacher who is there to educate them.

I have been reading your posts. And whether the teacher is allowed to hit the kid or not should be irrelevant to whether or not something like a ruler frightens the kid as it can be used as a weapon. You might as well be saying, “No teacher is allowed to shoot a student, so no they don’t fear the teacher who is there to educate them.” The whole point of the argument about the students earing a teacher who has access to the gun is that they would use it anyway. My point is that if the students fear the teacher in that sense, it isn’t due to the gun, it’s due to the teacher and that they will also fear the teacher having other items (like a big ruler) that can be used as a weapon as well.

School policies are in place to discipline a student so that the others may learn without disruption and this includes removing a kid from the class. I am a trusted teacher and I would never bring a loaded firearm into the classroom. And I can assure you from personal experience that kids are intimidated by a loaded weapon as evidenced by our liaison officer when he steps into my room. Hell, it even intimidates me even though I know the guy. And you’re right about one thing, kids aren’t stupid. They know the weapon is loaded and they act accordingly, by being intimidated.

Cap’t Jack

The weapon isn’t what intimidates them, it would be the liaison officer himself that does so. If you are a trusted teacher, then none of the students should have a problem with you keeping a loaded gun at hand because you’re the friendly trusted teacher, not the scary liaison officer. And I am skeptical that you really own guns if a liaison officer’s sidearm intimidates you.

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Posted: 21 June 2013 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 358 ]
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LogicMan-The weapon isn’t what intimidates them, it would be the liaison officer himself that does so. If you are a trusted teacher, then none of the students should have a problem with you keeping a loaded gun at hand because you’re the friendly trusted teacher, not the scary liaison officer.

This is merely because LogicMan says so.

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Posted: 21 June 2013 05:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 359 ]
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SWAT teams are not necessarily all that well-trained at certain police departments either. It depends on the department. And while I haven’t done any detailed study of police department weight requirements, I have seen enough overweight police officers in my life.

And except on television I have seen none. And SWAT team members must pass not only stringent mental tests but physical as well. In short, you can’t be a tubby member if a SWAT team. I have been around police officers since childhood and have had several family members in various police departments. My maternal grandfather was a special agent for the C&O Railroad, his brother was the captain of the police force in my hometown, another brother was the county jailer and his half brother was Commonwealth’s attorney. my paternal cousin is a county officer of LA, not a tubby doughnut lover among them.

http://www.ehow.com/list_6121448_police-swat-team-requirements.html

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 21 June 2013 05:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 360 ]
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I have been reading your posts. And whether the teacher is allowed to hit the kid or not should be irrelevant to whether or not something like a ruler frightens the kid as it can be used as a weapon. You might as well be saying, “No teacher is allowed to shoot a student, so no they don’t fear the teacher who is there to educate them.” The whole point of the argument about the students earing a teacher who has access to the gun is that they would use it anyway. My point is that if the students fear the teacher in that sense, it isn’t due to the gun, it’s due to the teacher and that they will also fear the teacher having other items (like a big ruler) that can be used as a weapon as well.

Then You have absolutely no idea about student-teacher relationships in a classroom. A ruler used as a weapon? OMG. A kid would laugh at such an absurbitiy. No student I’ve ever taught would equate a ruler with a firearm. You’re really reaching LM. what an argument literally from ignorance. And are you implying that if a teacher has a gun then said teacher would use it anyway? I’m confused, again. No, students don’t fear teachers. The first thing a teacher learns in a classroom is to gain their student’s respect by showing them they care about educating them. No teacher would ever use fear or threats to gain this. Good teachers teach by example and what message would you send to a kid with a gun on your hip? Well, I think you already know the answer.

Cap’t Jack

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