4 of 5
4
Washington State follows Leviticus
Posted: 23 April 2013 03:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3060
Joined  2011-08-15

Are you thinkin’ what I’m thinkin’? Guys, if we could just get the musicians on this site together… Lazy Genius, CDs, live performances at CFI events, concerts, t shirts: merchandising, merchandising! We could make a mint! Derek, you’re a well, genius!

Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 April 2013 10:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4452
Joined  2007-08-31
Lois - 23 April 2013 01:40 PM

IQ scores can differ to some degree for the same individual on different IQ tests (age 12–13 years). (IQ score table data and pupil pseudonyms adapted from description of KABC-II norming study cited in Kaufman 2009.

Pupil   KABC-II   WISC-III   WJ-III
Asher   90   95   111
Brianna   125   110   105
...

So much about the objectivity of IQ tests. And the question arises if something is measured at all. We all have length, even if it is not measured. And when it is measured it can be more or less precise. But with those figures it should be clear that there is not just something there, called IQ, waiting to be measured. No wonder people sometimes say that an IQ test tests only one thing: how well somebody did doing the IQ test.

Surely there is more to say about it, but this comparison of IQs as done a few postings before is useless, unscientific babble.

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 April 2013 09:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1742
Joined  2007-10-22

George:

One can predict quite accurately the future socioeconomic status of person based on his IQ and the number stays basically the same throughout his life. How much we read or what education we receive has nothing to do with it.

That is very much due to the fact, as Lawler points, cultural background much more than and “natural intelligence.”  If you are born in a culturally succesful group chances are you will be successful youself.


While not statically valid, I will give one example, from my personal experience, of how wrong misleading IQ tests can be.  When I was in Jr. High there was the guy in Special Ed. because he too dumb according to the IQ tests to do normal schoolwork.  Before I went into the service I went to work at a railroad foundry, and he was working there.  When I was discharged I went back to work there, and I ran into him again.  At this point he was about thirty and the youngest Dept. Superintendent in the history of the plant.  When the plant closed 15 years later he was one of the handful of employees the company took with them.

Guess the IQ test missed something.

[ Edited: 25 April 2013 07:22 AM by garythehuman ]
 Signature 

Gary the Human

All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 April 2013 10:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9292
Joined  2006-08-29
garythehuman - 24 April 2013 09:46 AM

That is very much due to the fact, as Lawler points, cultural background much more than and “natural intelligence.”  If you are born in a culturally succesful group chances are you will be successful youself.

Except that this theory doesn’t explain why reared-apart identical twins score almost identically on IQ tests. But I get it, IQ is not genetically based because it can’t, and homosexuality is because it must. I have read enough liberal nonsense to know how it goes. Your naivety and deliberate self-deception are worse than the racism and ignorance of those on the right.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 April 2013 07:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1742
Joined  2007-10-22

George:

Perhaps you should read Lawler"s book before posting a criticism.

 Signature 

Gary the Human

All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 April 2013 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  19
Joined  2013-01-23
George - 23 April 2013 12:32 PM
Thevillageatheist - 23 April 2013 12:26 PM

But they can rise to the highest level of success their mental capacity will allow.

Which they do. As the psychologist Linda Gottfredson once said, “Life is an IQ test.”

I have to say I find this quote ridiculous. If life is an IQ test, where is the answer key?
Are we living in some designed universe where all people have a certain teleology that can then be held up to individual’s life outcomes and measure its greater or lesser success? Are we really all striving for the same thing?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 April 2013 08:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9292
Joined  2006-08-29
FPaNV - 25 April 2013 08:14 AM

Are we really all striving for the same thing?

No. People with an IQ of 80 strive to get hammered over the weekend while watching football, while people with an IQ of 160 strive to explain quantum electrodynamics.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 April 2013 09:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9292
Joined  2006-08-29
garythehuman - 25 April 2013 07:24 AM

George:

Perhaps you should read Lawler"s book before posting a criticism.

I think I would rather read the Bible backwards while lying on a bed of nails, drinking Coors Light and eating Hershey’s Pot of Gold.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 April 2013 10:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3060
Joined  2011-08-15

I have to say I find this quote ridiculous. If life is an IQ test, where is the answer key?
Are we living in some designed universe where all people have a certain teleology that can then be held up to individual’s life outcomes and measure its greater or lesser success? Are we really all striving for the same thing?

I believe that George’s comment was meant as a metaphor about life and not a literal statement. And in a sense we ARE striving for the same thing; see Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, the revised version and as to design relating to mental capacity see natural selection.


Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 April 2013 03:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1742
Joined  2007-10-22
George - 25 April 2013 09:04 AM
garythehuman - 25 April 2013 07:24 AM

George:

Perhaps you should read Lawler"s book before posting a criticism.

I think I would rather read the Bible backwards while lying on a bed of nails, drinking Coors Light and eating Hershey’s Pot of Gold.

Now your “fundamentalism” is coming out.  LOL

 Signature 

Gary the Human

All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 April 2013 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27

Known geniuses ahow up as geniuses on I Q tests, so, though flawed, they are valid at testing something.  There will always be anomalies. Sometimes persistence and hard work make up for a less than ideal IQ.  The tests don’t test for everything, just native intelligence.  I think theyre useful and valid in most cases.

L.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 April 2013 05:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5500
Joined  2010-06-16

A comment and an anecdote: 

1. A while ago, a USC psychologist did years of factor analysis and came up with fourteen separate and distinct kinds of intelligence.  So one could be very bright in one area and a dunce in another.

Many years ago when I was planning to change jobs, I wanted to prepare so I applied at about six or seven other companies that had areas and needs similar to the job I was looking for.  I learned all the questions the interviewers asked, and if I had messed up, I wrote it down then went home and worked on a good answer.  During those times I was asked to take IQ tests five times.  Three were of one brand, and two of another.  I remembered any questions I wasn’t able to answer then worked them out at home.

When I applied to the company I wanted to work for they went through the interview process and asked the same questions.  Then they sent me to a psychological testing firm who gave me the first test (twelve minute time).  Since I already knew all the answers I finished it in eight minutes.  This boggled the mind of the psychologist who then gave me the second test.

I didn’t know what the results were, but I was hired.  I worked for a very bright young chemist who later became the CEO, but his about-to-retire old fud boss was not too bright.  His comment after reading a paper I wrote was, “Well, just because your IQ is higher that 98% of the Fortune 500 CEOs, it isn’t the only thing you’ll need here.” 

My IQ is no where near that level, but repetition certainly does help.  LOL  And I got a lot more respect from upper management than one would expect. smile

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 April 2013 02:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  348
Joined  2006-11-27

I suspect that the I.Q.s of some of the most honorable, most decent people I have ever met don’t make it into the triple digits

 Signature 

If we’re not laughing, they’re winning.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 April 2013 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
Occam. - 25 April 2013 05:11 PM

A comment and an anecdote: 

1. A while ago, a USC psychologist did years of factor analysis and came up with fourteen separate and distinct kinds of intelligence.  So one could be very bright in one area and a dunce in another.

Many years ago when I was planning to change jobs, I wanted to prepare so I applied at about six or seven other companies that had areas and needs similar to the job I was looking for.  I learned all the questions the interviewers asked, and if I had messed up, I wrote it down then went home and worked on a good answer.  During those times I was asked to take IQ tests five times.  Three were of one brand, and two of another.  I remembered any questions I wasn’t able to answer then worked them out at home.

When I applied to the company I wanted to work for they went through the interview process and asked the same questions.  Then they sent me to a psychological testing firm who gave me the first test (twelve minute time).  Since I already knew all the answers I finished it in eight minutes.  This boggled the mind of the psychologist who then gave me the second test.

I didn’t know what the results were, but I was hired.  I worked for a very bright young chemist who later became the CEO, but his about-to-retire old fud boss was not too bright.  His comment after reading a paper I wrote was, “Well, just because your IQ is higher that 98% of the Fortune 500 CEOs, it isn’t the only thing you’ll need here.” 

My IQ is no where near that level, but repetition certainly does help.  LOL  And I got a lot more respect from upper management than one would expect. smile

Occam

I suspect ypur IQ really was higher than 98% of the CEOs.  I’ve met quite a few CEOs and they didn’t come across as that bright.  They are competitive and often aggressive but not necessarily bright, and competitiveness, aggression and ruthlessness makes up for their ordinary intellects, at least in the minds of the people who hire them..  They make a lot of logical errors but they are seldom called on them at that level. But they do get their inflated salaries and bonuses even when they’ve shown gross incompetence and created disasters. Its not intellect that gets them CEO jobs and protects them through their incompetence, it’s the flawed system. 


Lois

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 April 2013 10:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5500
Joined  2010-06-16

Possibly, but what I was pointing out was that I “gamed” the IQ tests.  Since they are usually constructed such that it’s extremely difficult to finish answering all the questions and do all the math within the time limits.  The amount one DOES finish is an indication of one’s IQ.  Since I had prior knowledge and had even worked out the math ones at home, the fact that I finished very early gave a false view of my capability (which didn’t bother me. smile  ).  So, whatever IQ the tests showed were certainly far higher than my real IQ. 

Even in my seventh grade test, since I have a very good memory, when I went home that day I got to look up about a dozen words I had never heard as as a 12 year old like syzygy and proclivity, two I recall, and work out the math and progression problems.  In other words, each time one takes such a test, if they are motivated, they raise their apparent IQ for the next time they happen to run into those problems.

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
   
4 of 5
4