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Posted: 30 April 2013 03:51 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Hi, I am Ruth. A non- theist, Secular Humanist who is hoping to engage in meaningful, thought-provoking, enlightening, inspiring and mutually beneficent discussion with others. I really enjoy this aspect of life.

I am a multi-faceted being as are we all in our uniquely distinct way.

I spent 39 years of my life deeply enmeshed, inundated is more accurate, in religious discourse, either by force, personal inquiry or academically.

I hope this is a fulfilling avenue of intellectually honest discourse for me as it is something I have been seeking for a long time.

I am not necessarily anti-religious, I merely fiind religion a relic, an artifact, if you will, of antiquity.

Sincerely,

Ruth

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Ruth Hochman

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Posted: 30 April 2013 04:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Ruth Hochman - 30 April 2013 03:51 PM

Hi, I am Ruth. A non- theist, Secular Humanist who is hoping to engage in meaningful, thought-provoking, enlightening, inspiring and mutually beneficent discussion with others. I really enjoy this aspect of life.

I am a multi-faceted being as are we all in our uniquely distinct way.

I spent 39 years of my life deeply enmeshed, inundated is more accurate, in religious discourse, either by force, personal inquiry or academically.

I hope this is a fulfilling avenue of intellectually honest discourse for me as it is something I have been seeking for a long time.

I am not necessarily anti-religious, I merely fiind religion a relic, an artifact, if you will, of antiquity.

Sincerely,

Ruth

Welcome.  I hope it is a good fit.  You may find yourself becoming more anti religion as you learn how destructive religious faith can be. That has been my experience, anyway.

Lois

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Posted: 30 April 2013 05:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Thank you for your welcome, Lois. I perhaps have misrepresented myself.  As you and others get to know me you will come to know my values are very strong and I am neither a fan of religion, god, or of those who impose their beliefs on others. If you’re interested in knowing more about me, my recent blog post and Google + postings are very informative in this regard.

I, do, however, enjoy intellectualy honest discussion and not simply harping on others.

Ruth

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Posted: 30 April 2013 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Welcome Ruth. I look forward to you adding your voice to the discussion.

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For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious,.... and just plain wrong

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Posted: 30 April 2013 06:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Thank you, MacGyver. I look forward to joining the discussion.

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Ruth Hochman

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Posted: 30 April 2013 07:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Welcome, Ruth.  I’m delighted that you identify yourself as I do, a non-theist rather than an atheist.  (Although I usually give in and let those who can’t recognize the difference call me an atheist.)  smile

BTW, don’t get discouraged by the theists who sneak on here in an attempt to convert us heathens.  They usually last only a month or two before they get frustrated and leave. LOL

Occam

[ Edited: 30 April 2013 07:18 PM by Occam. ]
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Posted: 30 April 2013 08:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Occam. - 30 April 2013 07:16 PM

Welcome, Ruth.  I’m delighted that you identify yourself as I do, a non-theist rather than an atheist.  (Although I usually give in and let those who can’t recognize the difference call me an atheist.)  smile


BTW, don’t get discouraged by the theists who sneak on here in an attempt to convert us heathens.  They usually last only a month or two before they get frustrated and leave. LOL

Occam

What is the difference between a non theist and an atheist?

Lois

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Posted: 01 May 2013 11:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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What is the difference between a non theist and an atheist?

Lois

Uh oh….
It’s just spelling.  And it signifies the way a person wants to project themselves.  The small semantic differences highlight the way a person wants to let others know about their logic and reasoning. Specifically in the area of probability and definition of the unknown.
That’s all.

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Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

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Posted: 01 May 2013 12:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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That word “probability” is IMO the key here. Occam comes from the scientific community which stipulates that every theory should be open ended to a degree just in case more evidence pops up to refute your theory, maybe there is a god and it’s a compilation of all known matter and energy, hence the term non-theist leaves the door open. No problem with that at all; even Sagan admitted the possibility. my background is in the humanities and took the path of researching the origins of religion, mainly xtianity, and found it to be entirely manmade. I chose atheism. There’s other paths too as you well know, e.g. Apatheists who just don’t care about the issue to argue one way or another. and welcome Ruth.

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 01 May 2013 12:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Yes Village, but before that we must define theory.
Or we allow for all theories to be open.  Like the undetectable flying teapot.
How much more open to probability is a rational person to the teapot?  They’re not open to it!
They’re open to the idea of god because of a few good solid reasons:
-Odds are they were raised with at least a little mysticism.(Santa, jesus, boogeymen, ghosts, scary stories, darkness, tooth fairy etc…very, very very important imprinting.))
-Billions of people identify with mysticism. Maybe there’s something to it.  The paintings. The music, the history, the bible, the cathedrals, the generations, etc..
We uphold our ideas of non-theism or atheism or agnosticism as a minority.  Whenever they are outnumbered…many people have doubts.
“Hmnnn..maybe I am wrong!  Maybe there could be a god?”
The vast majority of the majority of believers never allow for the small probability of NO god.  They may allow for variations, but in the end they know something is there.
Like I’ve said before many so-called atheists or people who gave up religion-myself included, are perfectly susceptible to a death bed conversion.
So a theist may have doubts…but in the end…
That’s imprinting!  It get’s imprinted on our natural hardwiring for fear of the unknown. Darkness.

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Posted: 01 May 2013 01:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Do you fear the darkness Vy? We’re both atheists who were imprinted with the boogeyman, Jesus, Santa, as most Americans were, especially those of us raised during the Cold War, the time of great fear, fear of spies, of the bomb, of ultimate destruction, diving under our desks at school as we were told to do by our teachers. Fear of societal change now that desegregation (my kid’s brain never figured that one out) became law and women were leaving the kitchen to work. Then the missle crises and the countdown to launch. There was something to fear everyday. Then my close relatives began to die, grandfathers, uncles , aunts then grandmothers. It started when I was nine. My xtian parents tried to comfort us with visions of an afterlife. “You’ll see him again” “he’s up in heaven with Jesus”. Doing what, I asked myself? I wouldn’t dare ask openly ask that question of an adult. Then I almost died. I was eleven and was drowning in a public pool. Luckily the lifeguard spotted me and drug me out. I never forgot the experience of losing consciousnesses. Never thought of Jesus, my grandfather, or heaven, just air. Since then I’ve faced death a couple of times more as an adult and even though the experiences were scary, I never thought of dropping to one knee just to satisfy Pascal. Still don’t. I’m not afraid of the dark any more. Wary, but not afraid.


Cap’t Jak

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Posted: 01 May 2013 02:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 01 May 2013 01:58 PM

Do you fear the darkness Vy? We’re both atheists who were imprinted with the boogeyman, Jesus, Santa, as most Americans were, especially those of us raised during the Cold War, the time of great fear, fear of spies, of the bomb, of ultimate destruction, diving under our desks at school as we were told to do by our teachers…....I never forgot the experience of losing consciousnesses. Never thought of Jesus, my grandfather, or heaven, just air. Since then I’ve faced death a couple of times more as an adult and even though the experiences were scary, I never thought of dropping to one knee just to satisfy Pascal. Still don’t. I’m not afraid of the dark any more. Wary, but not afraid.


Cap’t Jak

Perhaps I used too much license when choosing the word darkness. But you get it. The unknown. Fear. Hope. Faith that there is light at the end of darkness.
Maybe you and I will never drop to one knee. Many others will.
Folks who thought they wouldn’t.
Do I fear the darkness?  Hmmn…sometimes.  Usually it’s actually dark though…and there are unknowns. Unknown possibilities.

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Posted: 01 May 2013 04:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Perhaps I used too much license when choosing the word darkness. But you get it. The unknown. Fear. Hope. Faith that there is light at the end of darkness.
Maybe you and I will never drop to one knee. Many others will.
Folks who thought they wouldn’t.
Do I fear the darkness?  Hmmn…sometimes.  Usually it’s actually dark though…and there are unknowns. Unknown possibilities.

You’re right about fear though, fear of our untimely end. I think that most of us still have the impression that we’ll just go on until… . We continually pretend that our lives won’t end soon,or at least we hope not! I feel that’s What the nihilists have over us.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 01 May 2013 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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The differential atheist vs nontheist definitions usually come up when I’m discussing with theists.  They seem to see A-theist as equivalent to Anti-theist which gives them some arguing points such as claiming that atheism is merely another religion.  Or, even if not that strong, they see a- as a declaration of the negative, a position I don’t want to argue for.  For me, non-theism is a word that means I don’t have the slightest interest in the concept and will only discuss it if pushed, my views attacked, or pressed to convert to theism. 

Occam

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Posted: 01 May 2013 06:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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VYAZMA - 01 May 2013 11:44 AM

What is the difference between a non theist and an atheist?

Lois

Uh oh….
It’s just spelling.  And it signifies the way a person wants to project themselves.  The small semantic differences highlight the way a person wants to let others know about their logic and reasoning. Specifically in the area of probability and definition of the unknown.
That’s all.

If it’s just spelling it is a distinction without a difference. But here you imply that atheists don’t want to let others know about their logic and reasoning in the area of probability and definition.  How does the use of “non-theist” “non-believer” or any other euphemism do that, while “atheist”  does not?  You are playing into the hands of people who claim there is a difference between a “non-theist” and an “atheist.” There is no difference.  All non-theists are atheists, just as all “non-believers” and “agnostics” are atheists.  Why not be ready to explain exactly what atheism is and what it represents and doesn’t represent instead of promoting the fiction that there is a difference, and that, somehow, atheists are lesser non-theists and a little suspect, too?


Lois

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Posted: 01 May 2013 07:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 01 May 2013 12:00 PM

That word “probability” is IMO the key here. Occam comes from the scientific community which stipulates that every theory should be open ended to a degree just in case more evidence pops up to refute your theory, maybe there is a god and it’s a compilation of all known matter and energy, hence the term non-theist leaves the door open.


There is no difference in that and the correct definition of an atheist, which is merely one without belif in a god.  There is nothing in atheism that closes the door, except to those who misdefine it.  Got rid of the slash so the quote box will begin a the next paragraph, below.


No problem with that at all; even Sagan admitted the possibility. my background is in the humanities and took the path of researching the origins of religion, mainly xtianity, and found it to be entirely manmade. I chose atheism. There’s other paths too as you well know, e.g. Apatheists who just don’t care about the issue to argue one way or another. and welcome Ruth.

Cap’t Jack


Lois: there is no difference between the word “atheist” and any other euphemism you can name.  The problem arises when atheists themselves fall into the misdefinition trap. 

Incidentally, nothing I’ve said here, has anything to do with not welcoming Ruth to the group. 

Love ya, anyway, Jack

Lois

[ Edited: 02 May 2013 07:49 PM by Occam. ]
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