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Posted: 01 May 2013 07:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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My #15 response to Cap’t Jack, above, shows that putting in the end quote has no effect on how the post comes out.  In fact, in all the places where I added the end quote, it has disappeared when it was posted!

Lois

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Posted: 01 May 2013 08:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Hello All,

I will reply to this tomorrow. Great discussion.

Ruth

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Posted: 01 May 2013 10:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Lois - 01 May 2013 06:57 PM
VYAZMA - 01 May 2013 11:44 AM

What is the difference between a non theist and an atheist?

Lois

Uh oh….
It’s just spelling.  And it signifies the way a person wants to project themselves.  The small semantic differences highlight the way a person wants to let others know about their logic and reasoning. Specifically in the area of probability and definition of the unknown.
That’s all.

If it’s just spelling it is a distinction without a difference. But here you imply that atheists don’t want to let others know about their logic and reasoning in the area of probability and definition.  How does the use of “non-theist” “non-believer” or any other euphemism do that, while “atheist”  does not?  You are playing into the hands of people who claim there is a difference between a “non-theist” and an “atheist.” There is no difference.  All non-theists are atheists, just as all “non-believers” and “agnostics” are atheists.  Why not be ready to explain exactly what atheism is and what it represents and doesn’t represent instead of promoting the fiction that there is a difference, and that, somehow, atheists are lesser non-theists and a little suspect, too?


Lois

Lois, are you sure you’ve responded to the right post here?

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Posted: 02 May 2013 05:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Lois: there is no difference between the word “atheist” and any other euphemism you can name.  The problem arises when atheists themselves fall into the misdefinition trap. 

Incidentally, nothing I’ve said here, has anything to do with not welcoming Ruth to the group. 

I agree Lois, but some don’t feel argumentative when in informal conversation by hitting a theist between the eyes with the
Negatively perceived term “atheist”. hell, even Tyson admits that he’s open ended about the possibility of a deity if proven. Darwin even said he would scrap his own theory (leaving a god out of the equation) if proof of god was found. I’m sure that Occam knows the difference between an atheist and an agnostic but just doesn’t want to be bothered by the eyebrow raising theist who then goes into high gear to “save your soul”. Believe me, I’ve found it helpful at times. It’s kind of a polite way of saying “get the hell out of my space you ignorant Moron and take your skydaddy with you”. I don’t usually say that, but I think it. Haven’t had any pesky proselytizers in the neighborhood in a long while but I’m not a curmudgeon! There are times when you just don’t want to fool with a detailed explanation to someone in a theist bubble like our friend on another site!


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 02 May 2013 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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VYAZMA - 01 May 2013 10:13 PM
Lois - 01 May 2013 06:57 PM
VYAZMA - 01 May 2013 11:44 AM

What is the difference between a non theist and an atheist?

Lois

Uh oh….
It’s just spelling.  And it signifies the way a person wants to project themselves.  The small semantic differences highlight the way a person wants to let others know about their logic and reasoning. Specifically in the area of probability and definition of the unknown.
That’s all.

If it’s just spelling it is a distinction without a difference. But here you imply that atheists don’t want to let others know about their logic and reasoning in the area of probability and definition.  How does the use of “non-theist” “non-believer” or any other euphemism do that, while “atheist”  does not?  You are playing into the hands of people who claim there is a difference between a “non-theist” and an “atheist.” There is no difference.  All non-theists are atheists, just as all “non-believers” and “agnostics” are atheists.  Why not be ready to explain exactly what atheism is and what it represents and doesn’t represent instead of promoting the fiction that there is a difference, and that, somehow, atheists are lesser non-theists and a little suspect, too?


Lois

Lois, are you sure you’ve responded to the right post here?


Yes, Im sure.  What seems wrong to you? 

Lois

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Posted: 02 May 2013 11:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 02 May 2013 05:24 AM

Lois: there is no difference between the word “atheist” and any other euphemism you can name.  The problem arises when atheists themselves fall into the misdefinition trap. 

Incidentally, nothing I’ve said here, has anything to do with not welcoming Ruth to the group. 

I agree Lois, but some don’t feel argumentative when in informal conversation by hitting a theist between the eyes with the
Negatively perceived term “atheist”. hell, even Tyson admits that he’s open ended about the possibility of a deity if proven. Darwin even said he would scrap his own theory (leaving a god out of the equation) if proof of god was found. I’m sure that Occam knows the difference between an atheist and an agnostic but just doesn’t want to be bothered by the eyebrow raising theist who then goes into high gear to “save your soul”. Believe me, I’ve found it helpful at times. It’s kind of a polite way of saying “get the hell out of my space you ignorant Moron and take your skydaddy with you”. I don’t usually say that, but I think it. Haven’t had any pesky proselytizers in the neighborhood in a long while but I’m not a curmudgeon! There are times when you just don’t want to fool with a detailed explanation to someone in a theist bubble like our friend on another site!

 

Cap’t Jack

Yes I agree, there are many times when discretion is called for, but this is a group for discussions about religion and which is heavily populated by atheists and others interested in religious ideas.  This is not the place to pussyfoot around.

Lois

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Posted: 02 May 2013 11:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Yes I agree, there are many times when discretion is called for, but this is a group for discussions about religion and which is heavily populated by atheists and others interested in religious ideas.  This is not the place to pussyfoot around.

Ha! I haven’t heard the phrase “pussyfooting around” since the days of George Wallace. It was his favorite phrase. And here, absolutely! Hence my log- in title. But we’re here with fellow skeptics and not surrounded by theists who knock out your car windows for having an Obama sticker on your bumper. There are times when discretion is the better part of valor so to speak, although I still have my “evolve” car decal clearly displayed. And remember, we discuss other topics as well. this site isn’t just for anti-theists.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 02 May 2013 11:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Labels exist so that we can categorize and define things, people, etc. An atheist is somebody who doesn’t believe in God, and a non theist is somebody who doesn’t believe in God and likes to tell us that succinctness is clarity’s core complicate things.  wink

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Posted: 02 May 2013 11:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Lois - 02 May 2013 11:08 AM
VYAZMA - 01 May 2013 10:13 PM
Lois - 01 May 2013 06:57 PM
VYAZMA - 01 May 2013 11:44 AM

What is the difference between a non theist and an atheist?

Lois

Uh oh….
It’s just spelling.  And it signifies the way a person wants to project themselves.  The small semantic differences highlight the way a person wants to let others know about their logic and reasoning. Specifically in the area of probability and definition of the unknown.
That’s all.

If it’s just spelling it is a distinction without a difference. But here you imply that atheists don’t want to let others know about their logic and reasoning in the area of probability and definition.  How does the use of “non-theist” “non-believer” or any other euphemism do that, while “atheist”  does not?  You are playing into the hands of people who claim there is a difference between a “non-theist” and an “atheist.” There is no difference.  All non-theists are atheists, just as all “non-believers” and “agnostics” are atheists.  Why not be ready to explain exactly what atheism is and what it represents and doesn’t represent instead of promoting the fiction that there is a difference, and that, somehow, atheists are lesser non-theists and a little suspect, too?


Lois

Lois, are you sure you’ve responded to the right post here?


Yes, Im sure.  What seems wrong to you? 

Lois

What makes you think I am implying that ‘atheists don’t want to let others know….”?
Really I don’t know what the heck you’re talking about the rest of the way through.
I don’t care if there’s a difference or not. I’ve argued on this forum for pages and pages that agnostics are actually believers.  That’s my stance.
Agnostics, non-theists, etc etc….want to hold out openly declaring god doesn’t exist.  That’s what I gather from talking and arguing with theists, atheists, agnostics, Occamists,  Georgists,  Dougists,  GdBists, etc…
But to my consternation sometimes a self-identifying atheist will pop up on the forum and claim we can’t be 100% sure there is no god!!
So at that point…what difference does it make? It’s just labels…as George has reiterated above. People want to be put in boxes of classification.
And they want to classify things in boxes.

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Posted: 02 May 2013 07:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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First: Go back to your post #15, Lois and see what happened when I made a minor correction.  (use the edit box to let you see the symbols.)

Second: Of course I realize that the nontheist and atheist difference is just tiny semantic game playing, however, AS I SAID EARLIER theists like to nit-pick the definition of atheist so non-theist is my defense against them.

Third: Geez, George, I try to be succinct, but all you people just don’t get it when I am, so I’m stuck with complicating things. LOL

Fourth:  Sorry, Ruth, about going off topic in your thread, but that’s sort of typical here. smile

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Posted: 03 May 2013 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Good morning all,

I hope you are all doing well on this Friday morning. I am posting from my smartphone and for some awful reason unless I type at the most umbearable snail’s pace, replying to your awesome posts individually is an absolute pain in the posterior. For the sake of time, I will respond to the community as a whole.

First and foremost, thank you for your welcome. Now straight away into matters and at the risk of sparling incitement I will add my thoughts on things.

The only people, in my opinion, who talk about god more than the religious are Atheists. Kind of like the only people who talk about money more than the rich are the poor.

With all due respect, I truly don’t get Atheism. Saying “I don’t believe in god” is as irrational as saying “I do believe in god!

Agnostics are still not sure.

Which brings me to non-theism.

We are sure we don’t know. We are comfortable with ambiguity, uncertainty,  the unknown, and god talk is an irrelevant moot point, not mere semantics as someone suggested. Though, nontheism has somehow become an umbrella for the Atheists and Agnostics.

Respectfully,

Ruth

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Posted: 03 May 2013 09:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Welcome to the forum, Ruth.  I think your definition of “non-theist” is pretty much the same as I think of myself when I call myself an “atheist”.  The prefix “a-” means “not”.  I’m not claiming to know for certain that God doesnot and cannot possibly under any circumstances exist.  I’m just saying that I, personlly, don’t see any good reason to believe that he does.  I’m not hostile to the concept of God, it just doesn’t answer any of my needs.

And if I can say so without seeming too forward, the photos of you on your website are Stunning!  smile

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Posted: 03 May 2013 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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With all due respect, I truly don’t get Atheism. Saying “I don’t believe in god” is as irrational as saying “I do believe in god!

Agnostics are still not sure.

Which brings me to non-theism.

We are sure we don’t know. We are comfortable with ambiguity, uncertainty,  the unknown, and god talk is an irrelevant moot point, not mere semantics as someone suggested. Though, nontheism has somehow become an umbrella for the Atheists and Agnostics.

No problem Ruth. And you’re right, I don’t “believe” in god or any god for that matter as irretifutable proof exists that the whole concept was a human invention created in our image. Therefore I don’t find the concept irrational at all! As I’ve stated many times though if somehow proof of a god does turn up then I’ll change my mind. So far, nothing. So you’re still not sure and you’re comfortable with that. So be it. That makes you an apatheist, don’t know, don’t care. Once again I have no problem with that at all. And you could put us all under that umbrella, theists however would and add a few more epithets just for emphasis. So once again welcome to the forum and am looking forward to your posts.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 03 May 2013 05:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Hi Cap’t JacK,

I absolutely believe god is a human invention and not the other way around. To say “were someone to come to you with proof otherwise” is to imply you are more of an Agnostic than an Atheist. To presumptuously state “I am not sure” would suggest your need to define me and therefore label me and imply I am an Agnostic. To suggest “I cannot be bothered one way or another” and therefore label me an Apatheist is rather audacious.

I am a Non-theist as I declared in my intro. There is no god. There never was a god. There never will be a god. The idea of gods abounded through myth and folklore through the ages and morphed over time.

The cosmos is vast, incomprehensible. We live in a world of uncertainty, ambiguity and the unknown. Life is a grand mystery. We are a mystery unto ourselves. Time and control are grand illusions. The only moment is now. Arguing about whether there is a god or not is truly a blatant misuse of time and energy. I think those were the points I was trying to make.

Respectfully submitted,

Ruth

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Posted: 03 May 2013 06:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Well put, Ruth.  I agree about the idea of a god.  As I’ve related here earlier, I was delighted when I finished reading the child’s bible my aunt gave me for my seventh birthday, because it was just one more great set of mythology to go along with all the other ones I’d been reading.  LOL

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