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Death Penalty
Posted: 07 May 2013 02:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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mid atlantic - 07 May 2013 10:13 AM
Lois - 07 May 2013 09:24 AM

In addition to all that, why should we lessen the discomfort of a criminal by killing him? To my mind, at least, it is more of a punishment to keep him locked up for life. 

Lois

Are you a sadist, after all?

No, I’m a realist. The problem as I see it isn’t with my preference for not executing people but with the preference of people who think death is somehow a worse punishment than life in prison.  They are the sadistic ones because of what they think death means. In my view, death is the end of everything for that person.  It would be like giving tha criminal a gift, an escape from contemplating his actions and feeling any guilt at all.  I also don’t think he should be tortured or deprived of food, sleep, exercise,  recreation, reading materials, media communications or visits, etc.  And if you ask me if I would feel different if the criminal had killed one of my loved ones, of course I would!  I might be moved to wring his neck or torture him myself.  But that’s why we have laws and why we in civilized countries don’t allow family members or other civilians to kill or torture people who have committed crimes or who are suspected of committing crimes. Lynch mobs and vengeance killings come to mind. That’s not my idea of a civilized society and setting up a government to do the dirty work it is no better, no matter how sterile the process is.

Lois

[ Edited: 08 May 2013 12:47 PM by Lois ]
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Posted: 07 May 2013 04:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Tell that to the gun toting’ Governor Rick Perry. Four hundred and ninety six executions since 1982 making Texas number one in The US for capital punishment.


http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/dr_executed_offenders.html


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 07 May 2013 05:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Lois - 07 May 2013 02:50 PM
mid atlantic - 07 May 2013 10:13 AM
Lois - 07 May 2013 09:24 AM

In addition to all that, why should we lessen the discomfort of a criminal by killing him? To my mind, at least, it is more of a punishment to keep him locked up for life. 

Lois

Are you a sadist, after all?

No, I’m a realist. The problem as I see it isn’t with my preference for not executing peopel but with the preference of people who think death is somehow a worse punishment than life in prison.  They are the sadistic ones becauseof whatbthey think death means. In my view, death is the end of everything for that person.  It would be like giving tha criminal a gift, an escape from contemplating his actions and feeling any guilt at all.  I also don’t think he should be tortured or deprived of food, sleep, exercise,  recreation, reading materials, media communications or visits, etc.  And if you ask me if I would feel different if the criminal had killed one of my loved ones, of course I would!  I might be moved to wring his neck or torture him myself.  But that’s why we have laws and why we in civilized countries don’t allow family members or other civilians to kill or torture people who have committed crimes or who are suspected of committing crimes. Lynch mobs and vengeance killings come to mind. That’s not my idea of a civilized society and setting up a government to do the dirty work it is no better, no matter how sterile the process is.

Lois

But you said, why should we lessen the discomfort followed by it’s more of a punishment to keep him locked up for life.

It’s a fairly common sentiment from the mouths of anti death penalty advocates.

Sounds quite sadistic. Just saying.

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Posted: 07 May 2013 06:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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With the exception of Japan(who I think has a moratorium on it)

They don’t, but executions are extremely rare, always for murder, and always carried out privately with no fanfare. In 2012, Japan had seven verified executions. See http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/overview.html

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Posted: 08 May 2013 10:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 07 May 2013 06:24 PM

and always carried out privately with no fanfare.

If you are going to do it, this is the way to do it, IMO.

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Posted: 08 May 2013 11:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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One problem is the name of it.  Rather than “penalty” it should just be considered as removing a defective unit from the societal mix.  We should also get rid of the laws that allow repeated appeals that end up costing far more than just life imprisonment.  I realize that this means some who would later be found innocent would be executed.  However, rather than stopping them, just set up a system so that the family of anyone found innocent after being executed be paid, say, $1,000,000 which would be charged to the judge, jury, prosecutor, police, and witnesses who were responsible for the guilty verdict.  OK, so I’m being a wise ass.

Occam

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Posted: 08 May 2013 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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I have always been a strong believer in exile.  Let’s get some island that can hold enough people, has suitable land for agriculture and building development and use that island as a Prison Colony.
The island can easily be monitored for escape attempts by boat or aircraft.
The colonists can be provided with livestock and seed stock.  Intermittent technological aide can be provided such as plows and building tools.
We can debate whether they should be provided with electricity or internal combustion tractors/cars.
Anyone can be free to enter the colony as well. No one can ever leave.
The colonists will make their own government and hierarchy.
It should only be for men.  Because it would be unfair to put women in a situation like that.  Women prisoners could remain in the current internal system. 
The entire project should be run on a cost effective basis. In otherwords it should be far less expensive to run than our current system.
I completely agree that the money we spend on our judicial system is outrageous…and unfair to the majority of law-abiding citizens.
We can debate what crimes will get one sent to the colony…but any criminal can volunteer to go there for any offense.

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Posted: 08 May 2013 12:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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VYAZMA - 08 May 2013 11:46 AM

I have always been a strong believer in exile.  Let’s get some island that can hold enough people, has suitable land for agriculture and building development and use that island as a Prison Colony.
The island can easily be monitored for escape attempts by boat or aircraft.
The colonists can be provided with livestock and seed stock.  Intermittent technological aide can be provided such as plows and building tools.
We can debate whether they should be provided with electricity or internal combustion tractors/cars.
Anyone can be free to enter the colony as well. No one can ever leave.
The colonists will make their own government and hierarchy.
It should only be for men.  Because it would be unfair to put women in a situation like that.  Women prisoners could remain in the current internal system. 
The entire project should be run on a cost effective basis. In otherwords it should be far less expensive to run than our current system.
I completely agree that the money we spend on our judicial system is outrageous…and unfair to the majority of law-abiding citizens.
We can debate what crimes will get one sent to the colony…but any criminal can volunteer to go there for any offense.

It could turn out like the movie Papillon.  wink

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Posted: 08 May 2013 12:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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mid atlantic - 08 May 2013 12:29 PM
VYAZMA - 08 May 2013 11:46 AM

I have always been a strong believer in exile.  Let’s get some island that can hold enough people, has suitable land for agriculture and building development and use that island as a Prison Colony.
The island can easily be monitored for escape attempts by boat or aircraft.
The colonists can be provided with livestock and seed stock.  Intermittent technological aide can be provided such as plows and building tools.
We can debate whether they should be provided with electricity or internal combustion tractors/cars.
Anyone can be free to enter the colony as well. No one can ever leave.
The colonists will make their own government and hierarchy.
It should only be for men.  Because it would be unfair to put women in a situation like that.  Women prisoners could remain in the current internal system. 
The entire project should be run on a cost effective basis. In otherwords it should be far less expensive to run than our current system.
I completely agree that the money we spend on our judicial system is outrageous…and unfair to the majority of law-abiding citizens.
We can debate what crimes will get one sent to the colony…but any criminal can volunteer to go there for any offense.

It could turn out like the movie Papillon.  wink

Exactly..except without the escape.  Also no external forces using the colonists as labor.  And no officials or guards on the island.  No cells. No solitary.
Just colonists, and their rules.

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Posted: 08 May 2013 12:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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VYAZMA - 08 May 2013 12:36 PM
mid atlantic - 08 May 2013 12:29 PM
VYAZMA - 08 May 2013 11:46 AM

I have always been a strong believer in exile.  Let’s get some island that can hold enough people, has suitable land for agriculture and building development and use that island as a Prison Colony.
The island can easily be monitored for escape attempts by boat or aircraft.
The colonists can be provided with livestock and seed stock.  Intermittent technological aide can be provided such as plows and building tools.
We can debate whether they should be provided with electricity or internal combustion tractors/cars.
Anyone can be free to enter the colony as well. No one can ever leave.
The colonists will make their own government and hierarchy.
It should only be for men.  Because it would be unfair to put women in a situation like that.  Women prisoners could remain in the current internal system. 
The entire project should be run on a cost effective basis. In otherwords it should be far less expensive to run than our current system.
I completely agree that the money we spend on our judicial system is outrageous…and unfair to the majority of law-abiding citizens.
We can debate what crimes will get one sent to the colony…but any criminal can volunteer to go there for any offense.

It could turn out like the movie Papillon.  wink

Exactly..except without the escape.  Also no external forces using the colonists as labor.  And no officials or guards on the island.  No cells. No solitary.
Just colonists, and their rules.

A penal colony is a good idea; but IMO, one possible problem would be that other progressive nations might see it as a huge human rights violation, and try to sabotage the whole thing.

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Posted: 08 May 2013 12:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Occam. - 08 May 2013 11:16 AM

One problem is the name of it.  Rather than “penalty” it should just be considered as removing a defective unit from the societal mix.  We should also get rid of the laws that allow repeated appeals that end up costing far more than just life imprisonment.  I realize that this means some who would later be found innocent would be executed.  However, rather than stopping them, just set up a system so that the family of anyone found innocent after being executed be paid, say, $1,000,000 which would be charged to the judge, jury, prosecutor, police, and witnesses who were responsible for the guilty verdict.  OK, so I’m being a wise ass.

Occam

Ha, yes, but just try getting a law like that passed and enforced in this country. The judges would have a “stand-up” strike! I’d still think the death penalty is immoral.

Lois

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Posted: 08 May 2013 12:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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mid atlantic - 07 May 2013 05:05 PM
Lois - 07 May 2013 02:50 PM
mid atlantic - 07 May 2013 10:13 AM
Lois - 07 May 2013 09:24 AM

In addition to all that, why should we lessen the discomfort of a criminal by killing him? To my mind, at least, it is more of a punishment to keep him locked up for life. 

Lois

Are you a sadist, after all?

No, I’m a realist. The problem as I see it isn’t with my preference for not executing peopel but with the preference of people who think death is somehow a worse punishment than life in prison.  They are the sadistic ones becauseof whatbthey think death means. In my view, death is the end of everything for that person.  It would be like giving tha criminal a gift, an escape from contemplating his actions and feeling any guilt at all.  I also don’t think he should be tortured or deprived of food, sleep, exercise,  recreation, reading materials, media communications or visits, etc.  And if you ask me if I would feel different if the criminal had killed one of my loved ones, of course I would!  I might be moved to wring his neck or torture him myself.  But that’s why we have laws and why we in civilized countries don’t allow family members or other civilians to kill or torture people who have committed crimes or who are suspected of committing crimes. Lynch mobs and vengeance killings come to mind. That’s not my idea of a civilized society and setting up a government to do the dirty work it is no better, no matter how sterile the process is.

Lois

But you said, why should we lessen the discomfort followed by it’s more of a punishment to keep him locked up for life.

It’s a fairly common sentiment from the mouths of anti death penalty advocates.

Sounds quite sadistic. Just saying.

Take it as you will.  The death penalty is even more sadistic, IMO.

Lois

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Posted: 08 May 2013 01:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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VYAZMA - 08 May 2013 11:46 AM

I have always been a strong believer in exile.  Let’s get some island that can hold enough people, has suitable land for agriculture and building development and use that island as a Prison Colony.
The island can easily be monitored for escape attempts by boat or aircraft.
The colonists can be provided with livestock and seed stock.  Intermittent technological aide can be provided such as plows and building tools.
We can debate whether they should be provided with electricity or internal combustion tractors/cars.
Anyone can be free to enter the colony as well. No one can ever leave.
The colonists will make their own government and hierarchy.
It should only be for men.  Because it would be unfair to put women in a situation like that.  Women prisoners could remain in the current internal system.


The entire project should be run on a cost effective basis. In otherwords it should be far less expensive to run than our current system.
I completely agree that the money we spend on our judicial system is outrageous…and unfair to the majority of law-abiding citizens.
We can debate what crimes will get one sent to the colony…but any criminal can volunteer to go there for any offense.

Why not a separate place of exile for women!  I suspect the women would manage to create better conditions and a more sane and stable society than the men would.  Otherwise, I agree with your plan, but where could it be put? There aren’t many uninhabited places left (island or otherwise) that could “hold enough people, has suitable land for agriculture and building development and use . . . as a Prison Colony”.

[ Edited: 08 May 2013 01:04 PM by Lois ]
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Posted: 08 May 2013 01:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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VYAZMA - 07 May 2013 11:11 AM

Here’s another good point Cuthbert.
You’re using the easy catch phrase guilty.  That bends the conversation falsely to support a pro-death angle.
We are talking about courts and laws and legal systems here.  It’s not about innocent or guilty.
It’s about the charges that were brought against someone. The degree of the crime. The trial and the fairness of the trial.
The evidence found afterward that could have changed charges to a lower degree and penalty.
The evidence that was or was not allowed into the trial. Judicial review that shows a trial was not carried out optimally.
Facts of the trial that came to light afterward that would have changed legal proceedings. Juries. Jury selection, etc etc etc…

See what I mean. Your list is about the current system. I’m saying if there was a system that DIDN’T involve judges, evidence, etc. let’s say a perfected Lie Detector, what would you say then?

How about this:
Assuming a lie detector can be created that’s 99.9% accurate (which yes might be a big assumption. but maybe not)
If a person is accused of murder (of a certain kind, like the worst kind whatever that is by law), they’re simply brought into a chamber, given a lie detector test on say 3 different occasions, say over the course of a week. During that week they are NOT incarcerated. If they pass any one of the three tests (i.e. found to be telling the truth that they didn’t murder) then and only then will a jury be brought in. If they fail all three, THEN the family members get to decide A) life imprisonment B) death penalty.  And they have # days to decide, perhaps counseled by a psychologist.

In THIS scenario, would choice B be ok?

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Posted: 08 May 2013 03:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Lois - 08 May 2013 01:02 PM
VYAZMA - 08 May 2013 11:46 AM

I have always been a strong believer in exile.  Let’s get some island that can hold enough people, has suitable land for agriculture and building development and use that island as a Prison Colony.
The island can easily be monitored for escape attempts by boat or aircraft.
The colonists can be provided with livestock and seed stock.  Intermittent technological aide can be provided such as plows and building tools.
We can debate whether they should be provided with electricity or internal combustion tractors/cars.
Anyone can be free to enter the colony as well. No one can ever leave.
The colonists will make their own government and hierarchy.
It should only be for men.  Because it would be unfair to put women in a situation like that.  Women prisoners could remain in the current internal system.


The entire project should be run on a cost effective basis. In otherwords it should be far less expensive to run than our current system.
I completely agree that the money we spend on our judicial system is outrageous…and unfair to the majority of law-abiding citizens.
We can debate what crimes will get one sent to the colony…but any criminal can volunteer to go there for any offense.

Why not a separate place of exile for women!  I suspect the women would manage to create better conditions and a more sane and stable society than the men would.  Otherwise, I agree with your plan, but where could it be put? There aren’t many uninhabited places left (island or otherwise) that could “hold enough people, has suitable land for agriculture and building development and use . . . as a Prison Colony”.

Well, I think the ratio of male to female prisoners who would warrant colonization(under established sentencing guidelines)is disparate enough where the females
wouldn’t stress out our system.
But after all the data was in certainly a separate colony shouldn’t be ruled out.
I don’t know of any locations off-hand, but there are definitely sparsely inhabited islands big enough.  The current residents could be relocated by eminent domain.
Remember it isn’t for all criminals-just the ones who would warrant colonization under sentencing guidelines. Perhaps 20-30% of our current prison population. I’m just spit balling here.
The logistical concerns would be daunting maybe. But an administration should err on the side of frugality and severity.

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