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Unfair legal system?
Posted: 08 May 2013 01:54 PM   [ Ignore ]
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In the Death Penalty thread someone mentioned that African Americans make up the majority of those accused/jailed for crime in the US.  And they stated this is a reason why the system is flawed and the death penalty should be illegal (as well as for other reasons that I don’t think matter to this thread). Many use this argument too against the criminal system in general. Ok I grant that. BUT now let’s discuss White-Collar Crime.  Government statistics show that by a vast majority, white collar criminals (wcc) are white males.  Does this mean the system is biased against white males too, as far as wcc is concerned?

(And please, don’t anybody be a jerk and accuse a poster of being racist. I think it’s a given that this forum has about the closest to 0 racists as you can come.  This is a thread about truth and fairness, not race.)

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Posted: 08 May 2013 02:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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If the legal system is racist, then by the same logic it must also be sexist. A lot more men than women end up in jails.

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Posted: 08 May 2013 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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George - 08 May 2013 02:23 PM

If the legal system is racist, then by the same logic it must also be sexist. A lot more men than women end up in jails.

But it is a matter of documented fact that males commit far more crimes than females.  It is not a documented fact that blacks commit more crimes than whites, yet far more blacks are sentenced to prison and execution than whites. Their numbers in prisons and on death row are exceeded by their percentage in the population. That is not the case with males. Those are reasons a racism charge is valid and a sexism charge is not.

Lois

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Posted: 08 May 2013 03:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Lois - 08 May 2013 03:30 PM
George - 08 May 2013 02:23 PM

If the legal system is racist, then by the same logic it must also be sexist. A lot more men than women end up in jails.

But it is a matter of documented fact that males commit far more crimes than females.  It is not a documented fact that blacks commit more crimes than whites, yet far more blacks are sentenced to prison and execution than whites. Their numbers in prisons and on death row are exceeded by their percentage in the population. That is not the case with males. Those are reasons a racism charge is valid and a sexism charge is not.

Lois

BINGO! And if two men with identical histories and charges commit the same crime, and one is black and the other white, no matter the socio-economic status, the black man will receive the harsher sentence.

For the girl expelled and charged with a felony as an adult, for the crime of curiosity, I question whether she would have been dealt with the same way as either a white boy, .....or girl.

When you see reports of police called to schools for 5 and 6 year old children having age appropriate meltdowns, they are almost uniformly black children. These children are often cuffed and sometimes tazed. I have never seen a story where the child was white. 5 and 6 year olds sometimes have temper tantrums, elementary school teachers should know how to handle this reality.

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Posted: 08 May 2013 03:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Asanta-BINGO! And if two men with identical histories and charges commit the same crime, and one is black and the other white, no matter the socio-economic status, the black man will receive the harsher sentence.

For the girl expelled and charged with a felony as an adult, for the crime of curiosity, I question whether she would have been dealt with the same way as either a white boy, .....or girl.

When you see reports of police called to schools for 5 and 6 year old children having age appropriate meltdowns, they are almost uniformly black children. These children are often cuffed and sometimes tazed. I have never seen a story where the child was white. 5 and 6 year olds sometimes have temper tantrums, elementary school teachers should know how to handle this reality.

Amen.
The race thing is in our country’s marrow.  It’s a curse of history.  It won’t be easily solved. But we can see it slowly improving I think. It won’t be solved for a long time though. Long time.
I would like to add that the socio-economic thing is a huge factor that transcends race.  It does however by statistics show up more in minorities.
It’s a huge factor which feeds our justice system. Huge!

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Posted: 08 May 2013 04:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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CuthbertJ - 08 May 2013 01:54 PM

In the Death Penalty thread someone mentioned that African Americans make up the majority of those accused/jailed for crime in the US.  And they stated this is a reason why the system is flawed and the death penalty should be illegal (as well as for other reasons that I don’t think matter to this thread). Many use this argument too against the criminal system in general. Ok I grant that. BUT now let’s discuss White-Collar Crime.  Government statistics show that by a vast majority, white collar criminals (wcc) are white males.  Does this mean the system is biased against white males too, as far as wcc is concerned?

(And please, don’t anybody be a jerk and accuse a poster of being racist. I think it’s a given that this forum has about the closest to 0 racists as you can come.  This is a thread about truth and fairness, not race.)

Not sure what you mean. The death penalty has never been given to a convicted white collar criminal in the USA.

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Posted: 08 May 2013 04:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Lois - 08 May 2013 03:30 PM
George - 08 May 2013 02:23 PM

If the legal system is racist, then by the same logic it must also be sexist. A lot more men than women end up in jails.

  It is not a documented fact that blacks commit more crimes than whites, yet far more blacks are sentenced to prison and execution than whites.

Lois

It depends on what type of crime.

Black males commit the majority of violent crimes in the USA.  White males commit the majority of white collar crime in the USA.

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

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Posted: 08 May 2013 04:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Lois - 08 May 2013 03:30 PM
George - 08 May 2013 02:23 PM

If the legal system is racist, then by the same logic it must also be sexist. A lot more men than women end up in jails.

But it is a matter of documented fact that males commit far more crimes than females.  It is not a documented fact that blacks commit more crimes than whites, yet far more blacks are sentenced to prison and execution than whites. Their numbers in prisons and on death row are exceeded by their percentage in the population. That is not the case with males. Those are reasons a racism charge is valid and a sexism charge is not.

Lois

Of course it is well documented fact that blacks commit more crime than whites.

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Posted: 08 May 2013 06:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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George - 08 May 2013 04:35 PM

Of course it is well documented fact that blacks commit more crime than whites.

No, it’s a well documented fact that blacks are convicted of committing more crimes than whites. Do you understand the distinction?

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Posted: 08 May 2013 07:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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I think I understand it just fine. Hispanics commit more crime than whites and blacks commit more crime than both. This is not only true for the U.S. but also for countries with white, Latino and black populations. The same goes for the South American countries: crime is higher in Haiti or Jamaica than it is in Dominican Republic, and DR has higher crime than Uruguay.

[ Edited: 08 May 2013 07:24 PM by George ]
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Posted: 08 May 2013 07:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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CuthbertJ - 08 May 2013 01:54 PM

In the Death Penalty thread someone mentioned that African Americans make up the majority of those accused/jailed for crime in the US.  And they stated this is a reason why the system is flawed and the death penalty should be illegal (as well as for other reasons that I don’t think matter to this thread). Many use this argument too against the criminal system in general. Ok I grant that. BUT now let’s discuss White-Collar Crime.  Government statistics show that by a vast majority, white collar criminals (wcc) are white males.  Does this mean the system is biased against white males too, as far as wcc is concerned?

(And please, don’t anybody be a jerk and accuse a poster of being racist. I think it’s a given that this forum has about the closest to 0 racists as you can come.  This is a thread about truth and fairness, not race.)

I’m not sure what you are claiming, but if nearly all the white collar crime is being committed by white males, and it is, then white males would not appear to be overrepresented.  What could be done to avoid this suggested bias? Wait until they find a substantial number of non-white white-collar crime perpetrators before they continue with charges against whites?

The point is, white collar crime really is committed almost exclusively by white men. It’s a fact.  But Black street criminals don’t outnumber White ones—certainly not to the extent crime records show.  They would have to commit 50%+ more crimes than Whites to have the races in prison so heavily black and there is no evidence that they do,  They are simply more likely to be caught, more likely to be convicted,more likely to be imprisoned for the same crimes Whites commit, and there are other factors such as laws that come down more heavily on the kinds of crimes Blacks tend to commit as compared to the kinds of similar crimes Whites commit, such as using crack instead of plain cocaine. That’s where the racism comes in.  It’s a matter of statistics.  Nobody with any sense is claiming there is as much Black white-collar crime as White white-collaar crime but that Whites are being unfairly caught, convicted and imprisoned.

I don’t think people on this forum are racist, though there are undoubtedly a few lurking here.  It’s that their understanding of statistics regarding the justice system and the penal system are flawed, leading them to make racism charges where racism doesn’t exist.

Lois

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Posted: 08 May 2013 07:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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mid atlantic - 08 May 2013 04:34 PM
Lois - 08 May 2013 03:30 PM
George - 08 May 2013 02:23 PM

If the legal system is racist, then by the same logic it must also be sexist. A lot more men than women end up in jails.

  It is not a documented fact that blacks commit more crimes than whites, yet far more blacks are sentenced to prison and execution than whites.

Lois

It depends on what type of crime.

Black males commit the majority of violent crimes in the USA.  White males commit the majority of white collar crime in the USA.

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

mid atlantic - 08 May 2013 04:34 PM
Lois - 08 May 2013 03:30 PM
George - 08 May 2013 02:23 PM

If the legal system is racist, then by the same logic it must also be sexist. A lot more men than women end up in jails.

  It is not a documented fact that blacks commit more crimes than whites, yet far more blacks are sentenced to prison and execution than whites. 

Lois

It depends on what type of crime.

Black males commit the majority of violent crimes in the USA.  White males commit the majority of white collar crime in the USA.

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

Then why is it that the Wikipedia article you cite says, “For 2011, law enforcement made approximately 12,400,000 arrests nationally.Arrested offenders in the United States tend to be male, over age 18, and white.”

And the bjs article says, “Blacks were disproportionately represented as both homicide victims and offenders. The victimization rate for blacks (27.8
per 100,000) was 6 times higher than the rate for whites (4.5 per 100,000). The offending rate for blacks (34.4 per 100,000) was almost 8 times higher than the rate for whites (4.5 per 100,000).”

Of course, they get their “offending rate” from the conviction rate, which is higher for Blacks. So is the arrest rate and the imprisonment rate.

Nowhere in either citation does it say that Blacks commit the “majority of violent crimes in the U.S.” 

Are you saying that law enforcement is missing all those Blacks committing crimes? There was nothing in the Wikipedia  article that even implied that Blacks commit the majority of non-white-collar crimes.  But you should know that no matter what arrest records show, Blacks are more likely to be convicted and imprisoned than Whites—far more likely.  That’s why Blacks are so heavily represented in prisons and Whites represent such a small percentage, despite being more heavily represented in the general population. 


You should learn to read statistcs properly.  They can be twisted and misinterpreted to show almost anything you want them to show and you need to know how that is done. .

[ Edited: 08 May 2013 09:41 PM by Lois ]
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Posted: 08 May 2013 10:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Lois - 08 May 2013 07:56 PM

Then why is it that the Wikipedia article you cite says, “For 2011, law enforcement made approximately 12,400,000 arrests nationally.Arrested offenders in the United States tend to be male, over age 18, and white.

The number of arrests account for all types of crime.

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Posted: 08 May 2013 10:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Lois - 08 May 2013 07:56 PM

And the bjs article says, “Blacks were disproportionately represented as both homicide victims and offenders. The victimization rate for blacks (27.8
per 100,000) was 6 times higher than the rate for whites (4.5 per 100,000). The offending rate for blacks (34.4 per 100,000) was almost 8 times higher than the rate for whites (4.5 per 100,000).”

Of course, they get their “offending rate” from the conviction rate,  

This is your opinion, and is not reflected in the data.

This data doesn’t deal with conviction rates.

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Posted: 08 May 2013 11:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Blacks are also more heavily represented in the population freed by both dna testing showing they were innocent in the first place, and reversal of convictions by the Innocence Project.

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Posted: 09 May 2013 12:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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George - 08 May 2013 04:35 PM

Of course it is well documented fact that blacks commit more crime than whites.

Aren’t the issues whether more blacks are wrongly convicted than whites and whether the sentences for like crimes are unfairly different?

Stephen

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