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“The Impossible”
Posted: 17 May 2013 11:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]
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GdB - 17 May 2013 09:49 AM

Did I somewhere argue that there are no such correlations, and that they cannot be genetically based?

Yes, here:

GdB - 16 May 2013 12:14 AM

And one other point: we may be able to discover ‘racial correlations’. But concluding that they have a biological basis is still way to early.

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Posted: 17 May 2013 10:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]
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Some A are B.
Some A are not B.

That’s something you learn in logic.

Some correlations between genetic traits are purely biological.
Some correlations are caused by how the environment reacts on differences in genetic traits.

You do as if you already know that criminal behaviour and intelligence belong to the first category, and correlate with ‘racial differences’.

And do you also know the difference between a fact, and having good reasons to believe that a fact is true? If you see that difference, then you would see that there is no inconsistency between the 2 sentences:

Some correlations between genetic traits are purely biological.
But of a subset of correlations we do not know if they are.

In the meantime you still have not answered my question: are races natural kinds? Making ironic remarks about philosophy and dog breeding, or trying to stretch my remarks to something I clearly not meant, is not answering the question.

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“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

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Posted: 18 May 2013 11:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]
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In the meantime you still have not answered my question: are races natural kinds? Making ironic remarks about philosophy and dog breeding, or trying to stretch my remarks to something I clearly not meant, is not answering the question.

If I may hijack this paragraph, most paleontologists agree that Homo Sapiens began to move out of Africa ca 55,000 ya to populate and displace the other species of hominins living in Europe and Asia. There is evidence that inbreeding occurred BTW so that we carry Neanderthal genes and maybe others. They’re still working on that e.g. Denisovan remains. So all Homo Sapiens living today have the same genotype. That would make Homo Sapiens a natural kind as opposed to what 19th Century naturalists used to identify as a “race”. That IMO would refer to a phenotype to categorize humans and could not be used to define say an African-American as a member of a specific race. these characteristics such as skin tone are a product of evolution by environmental conditions thus paler skinned people live in areas of little sunlight to filter through the skin and darker skinned people have a browner skin tone to block it. the concept of race was an arbitrary distinction for societal use only, once again reference African slavery in beginning in the 16th Century. Down grading the slaves to illiterate beasts of burden made it easier to stomach the business of enslavement. Ephemera from slaveholders will verify this, e.g. The song “Amazing Grace” was written by a contrite slaver. As a matter of fact, the whole concept of race categorization is being blurred by miscegenation now allowed here since 1967. Race mixing is on the rise World wide and soon the World Chess Federation will be alive with darker skinned chess masters whose parents are mixed.

Once again, an anecdote for what it’s worth. In the late 70’s my wife and I worked with an ethnologist from Ohio State who had just published a book on the mixed blood people of Appalachia. He focused on a group called the Mulungeons who many believe to be triracial. Recent DNA tests revealed them to be predominately biracial but evidence exists that native peoples in the area also intermarried with Europeans as far back as the late 18th Century and formed small pockets of communities throughout the area. We visited with and collected info on a group Called the Carmelites, a mixed group near my grandmother’s ancestral home. This is only one of several groups in the US. The point is that race mixing as some still call it is becoming a World wide phenomenon. I’ll admit that the growth is slow but with legal hurdles out of the way and cultural acceptance it will become the norm. It seems that we as a species are coming together once again. With a blending of these groups (the US government has expanded it’s classifications for census purposes) on the rise IMO the criteria for categorization of people will blur then disapear. That doesn’t mean that the societal conditions leading to economic classifications will be altered, but it may have some positive effect. it’s too early to tell. It’s only been forty six years since laws prohibiting African-Americans and European-Americans to marry We’re stricken down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiracial

 

Cap’t Jack

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One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

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Posted: 18 May 2013 03:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]
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Your statement re: “soon the World Chess Federation will be alive with darker skinned chess masters whose parents are mixed. ” prompted me to look these up—

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/crosswords/chess/chess-three-young-african-americans-earn-recognition-as-masters.html?_r=0

http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/11/brooklyn_teen_on_track_to_become_first_black_female_chess_master.html

These kids are all from New York.  Could it be that something about their environmental development that lead to their excellence in this highly intellectual sport?  Could regular $100 an hour lessons have helped them to achieve this? Surely not. Or perhaps they are just genetically pre-disposed to becoming chess masters. But wait, how could that be? They are black! They don’t even appear to be of particularly mixed heritage.  How is it that their genetic make-up has allowed them to achieve this.  George, help me reconcile this mystifying phenomenon.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 18 May 2013 08:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]
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I see no reason why an African American couldn’t become a chess master or a president.

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Posted: 19 May 2013 05:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]
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I see no reason why an African American couldn’t become a chess master or a president.

You stole my thunder George, I was going to mention President Obama as a superlative example of a mixed race success story. And as to chess, I will concede that the World’s greatest chess master, Gary Kasparov, had Jewish ancestory. But how do we account for that fact? Is it cultural, Jewish people just play more chess and their parents encourage the game? There were many other grand masters who had no Jewish ancestory as well, e.g. Paul Morphy who contributed to the modern version of the game.

 

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 19 May 2013 06:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]
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No, it’s not cultural. Jews have very high average IQ. One of the theories is that they have been selected for higher intelligence during the Middle Ages. Jews were not allowed to farm and Chritians were prohibited from charging interest. Jews, then, could only work in the finances and only the children of those who had what it took cognetively could have made it. Look it up. There is a talk about it by Pinker on YouTube.

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Posted: 19 May 2013 06:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 19 May 2013 05:59 AM

I see no reason why an African American couldn’t become a chess master or a president.

You stole my thunder George, I was going to mention President Obama as a superlative example of a mixed race success story. And as to chess, I will concede that the World’s greatest chess master, Gary Kasparov, had Jewish ancestory.

 

Jews doing well at chess goes much further than that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_chess_players

I suspect George is right about this and think people only seriously doubt in cases in which they don’t like the consequences.

Stephen

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Posted: 19 May 2013 09:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]
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StephenLawrence - 19 May 2013 06:51 AM
Thevillageatheist - 19 May 2013 05:59 AM

I see no reason why an African American couldn’t become a chess master or a president.

You stole my thunder George, I was going to mention President Obama as a superlative example of a mixed race success story. And as to chess, I will concede that the World’s greatest chess master, Gary Kasparov, had Jewish ancestory.

 

Jews doing well at chess goes much further than that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_chess_players

I suspect George is right about this and think people only seriously doubt in cases in which they don’t like the consequences.

Stephen

They are also more likely to be from Russia. Figure that out if you can. Like violinists from Odessa.

Lois

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Posted: 19 May 2013 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]
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No, it’s not cultural. Jews have very high average IQ. One of the theories is that they have been selected for higher intelligence during the Middle Ages. Jews were not allowed to farm and Chritians were prohibited from charging interest. Jews, then, could only work in the finances and only the children of those who had what it took cognetively could have made it. Look it up. There is a talk about it by Pinker on YouTube.

Watching part one as we speak. Thanks for the info. I guess we can split the difference as he states that chess masters of Jewish descent make up half of the list. I Won’t comment on the rest of your post until after viewing the entire lecture. I’ll have to admit my prejudice when it comes to Pinker though.

 

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 19 May 2013 09:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]
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Jews doing well at chess goes much further than that.

True, but there are many chess masters who are not of Jewish desent, notably Arabs who after all introduced the game to Europeans. Here’s another Wiki list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chess_grandmasters

Cap’t Jack

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One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

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Posted: 19 May 2013 11:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]
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Perhaps the sarcasm within my last post was too subtle, or not stated directly enough.  Throughout my history on CFI, George has presented assertions and some evidence, here and there that some “races” are more endowed with intelligence than others.  He has ALSO, consistently poo-pooed the importance of environmental and cultural effects on human development.  In this very thread, he sarcastically, (though somewhat subtly) puts down the significance of social programs such as Head Start.

IMO, the existence of 4 young black chessmasters coming out of NY, (are just one tiny, but significant, example that) belies his position.  Which in essence, seems to me to be, that genetic endowment matters supremely, AND cultural and environmental factors matter little, if at all.

Chess is a human skill.  Like so many human skills, it is not passed on (in its actualized form) genetically.  Sure, underlying traits that contribute to intelligence are passed on genetically.  But the 4 young people referenced above would likely not have become chess masters if cultural factors had interfered with their developing those skills.  And perhaps more importantly, if they had not received regular training, they would not have excelled so well.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 19 May 2013 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 19 May 2013 09:18 AM

No, it’s not cultural. Jews have very high average IQ. One of the theories is that they have been selected for higher intelligence during the Middle Ages. Jews were not allowed to farm and Chritians were prohibited from charging interest. Jews, then, could only work in the finances and only the children of those who had what it took cognetively could have made it. Look it up. There is a talk about it by Pinker on YouTube.

Watching part one as we speak. Thanks for the info. I guess we can split the difference as he states that chess masters of Jewish descent make up half of the list. I Won’t comment on the rest of your post until after viewing the entire lecture. I’ll have to admit my prejudice when it comes to Pinker though.

 

Cap’t Jack

You can Pinker all you want.  But if you listen to or read Pinker closely, he does not take the extreme position that George seems to want (i.e., that culture and environmental learning play little or no significant role in the development of skills that humans need in order to become most effective.)

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 19 May 2013 11:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]
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George - 19 May 2013 06:43 AM

No, it’s not cultural. Jews have very high average IQ. One of the theories is that they have been selected for higher intelligence during the Middle Ages. Jews were not allowed to farm and Chritians were prohibited from charging interest. Jews, then, could only work in the finances and only the children of those who had what it took cognetively could have made it. Look it up. There is a talk about it by Pinker on YouTube.

Here’s a perfect example of George’s “sharp mind”.  George-“No it’s not cultural.”.....then he goes on to explain in the paragraph above Cultural!! significance.
The whole paragraph sounds like some goofy fairy tale.
The Jews were the little elves that lived down the road from the Smurfs.  The evil warlock wouldn’t let them farm.  He had them slaving at desks all day long doing math.  And that’s how the Jews got smart….
You-tube….what a great educational tool.
I bet we wouldn’t even notice Jews at all; for any attributes, if they weren’t highlighted against historical factors, and contrasted through the lens of christian based society.  That’s my bet! I’m going with that.

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Posted: 19 May 2013 02:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 105 ]
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Whether it’s intelligence, criminal aptitude, predilection for violence, chess ability….what’s are background comparison?
White people? Just curious….

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Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

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