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Should employers be allowed to opt out of offering treatments they object to?
Posted: 29 May 2013 08:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Mriana-In sports injuries, massage allegedly stimulates blood flow to the injured area, thereby assisting in helping it heal and currently used for some people, with certain injuries, in conjunction with physical and rehabilitation/occupational therapy, as well as any medications the doctor Rx.

Mriana, I’m sorry you have to put allegedly in your sentence. I know the heavy shadow that lurks over this forum regarding anything that doesn’t come in a test tube and cost 12 years of college.
I’m glad for your son. I hope it turns out to be a lucrative career.  I have gone to a massage therapist in the past for an achy back. At the very least it felt good.
It was worth the money.
I had a rebuttal on this forum once regarding someone’s objection to massage therapy efficacy.
It goes something like this:  When you stub your toe or bang your elbow, what’s the first thing you do?  You massage it, and say ooouuch!
I’ll be gosh darned if that massage reaction doesn’t almost come instinctively or automatically. So something is going on there.
And yes, I also agree that all forms of health care should be included-except perhaps elective procedures. Such as breast augmentation or nose jobs.

[ Edited: 29 May 2013 08:24 AM by VYAZMA ]
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Posted: 29 May 2013 08:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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VYAZMA - 29 May 2013 08:20 AM

Mriana-In sports injuries, massage allegedly stimulates blood flow to the injured area, thereby assisting in helping it heal and currently used for some people, with certain injuries, in conjunction with physical and rehabilitation/occupational therapy, as well as any medications the doctor Rx.

Mriana, I’m sorry you have to put allegedly in your sentence. I know the heavy shadow that lurks over this forum regarding anything that doesn’t come in a test tube and cost 12 years of college.
I’m glad for your son. I hope it turns out to be a lucrative career.  I have gone to a massage therapist in the past for an achy back. At the very least it felt good.
It was worth the money.
I had a rebuttal on this forum once regarding someone’s objection to massage therapy efficacy.
It goes something like this:  When you stub your toe or bang your elbow, what’s the first thing you do?  You massage it, and say ooouuch!
I’ll be gosh darned if that massage reaction doesn’t almost come instinctively or automatically. So something is going on there.
And yes, I also agree that all forms of health care should be included-except perhaps elective procedures. Such as breast augmentation or nose jobs.

Yes, I’m sorry I have to use the word “allegedly” too, but I agree with you completely, including on elective procedures being exempt.  Those should not be covered by insurance, IMO, except maybe in the case of a woman who has had breast cancer and had to have one or both breast removed.  Even then I question it, due to prosthetics.  My mother had breast cancer in one breast and they removed it over 10 years ago.  She went around for weeks saying she felt like an alien, until I hooked up with the Women’s Center who gave her a prosthetic.  That, in itself, helped her some psychologically.  It is part of the reason why I question whether or not some elective procedures should be covered or not.  When is it an elective and when is it a useful surgery?  Are prosthetics better than rebuilding the breast(s) after breast cancer or not, with or without psychological counseling for the patient?  So far my mother has done well, psychologically, with just a prosthetic, so maybe my question is null and void.

I also hope it is lucrative for my son too.  He still has clinic hours to do and is getting very discouraged, in part due to finances.  He got student loans to pay for it and has found he’s over his head now.

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Posted: 29 May 2013 08:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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TimB - 28 May 2013 03:29 PM

I’m assuming that our middle class is largely composed of persons who would be classified as employees rather than employers.  But with that assumption, is it just a coincidence that our middle class (which is in severe decline http://www.infowars.com/84-statistics-that-prove-the-decline-of-the-middle-class-is-real-and-that-it-is-getting-worse/ ) was so much better off when there existed a countervailing Communistic world power?

The American middle class became affluent primarily because of the rise of the assembly line. Industrial revolution and stuff.

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Posted: 29 May 2013 08:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Mriana-I also hope it is lucrative for my son too.  He still has clinic hours to do and is getting very discouraged, in part due to finances.  He got student loans to pay for it and has found he’s over his head now.

Well a little discouragement never hurt nobody.  He’s gotta hang tough.  Tough times these days.  Really.
There’s lot’s of articles out nowadays about the cost of education. How youth have to get in debt for 20-30 years just to get a degree they may never use.
That massage therapy sounds like a lock though.  Health care and care giving seem to be a steady growth industry.
How ironic this conversation is, in this thread. On a few levels. Regular people are getting squeezed…..

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Posted: 29 May 2013 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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VYAZMA - 29 May 2013 08:49 AM

Mriana-I also hope it is lucrative for my son too.  He still has clinic hours to do and is getting very discouraged, in part due to finances.  He got student loans to pay for it and has found he’s over his head now.

Well a little discouragement never hurt nobody.  He’s gotta hang tough.  Tough times these days.  Really.
There’s lot’s of articles out nowadays about the cost of education. How youth have to get in debt for 20-30 years just to get a degree they may never use.
That massage therapy sounds like a lock though.  Health care and care giving seem to be a steady growth industry.
How ironic this conversation is, in this thread. On a few levels. Regular people are getting squeezed…..

Yes, but part of the problems is my BS degree in psychology.  I’m not using it currently, but rather working at my Alma mater at a restaurant in the student union, because I can’t seem to find work in my degree field for the last 6 years, with no funds to get a MS.  We got into it about him doing his clinic hours and completing the program and during that dispute, he said, “You have a degree, but it is worthless and not doing you any good.”  My trying to point out to him that his schooling maybe more worthwhile and more in demand than mine has been didn’t encourage him any.  He seems more than just discouraged at this point, due to the squeeze.  My other son was going to go into medical assisting until he got into some trouble.  He too would have had a better chance of doing better than I have, if he hadn’t screwed up in the process, but my older son did not bring that up as an example during our little disagreement (and it was a small one), probably because he knows his little brother is a very bad example.  I guess he felt he had a stronger argument using my education as an example.  He also forgets, I’m nearly 47 y.o. too (will be in a couple of days, at least) and potential employers in the a given psychology area may feel my education is outdated and even worse given I’ve not been able to find another job in the field for 6 or 7 years now.  Since massage therapy and psychology are two different areas and he’s 24 too, his reasoning and logic breaks down in the end.

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Posted: 29 May 2013 12:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Mriana - 29 May 2013 07:01 AM
mid atlantic - 29 May 2013 12:49 AM

I think they should be able to opt out of some things. Alternative treatments that don’t have any scientific evidence, for one.

Even then, I think people should have freedom of choice.  A holistic dr who uses both is better than one who is completely alternative, in part because a holistic dr uses both scientifically proven methods and methods still needing tests to prove their efficacy and usefulness.  However, if s/he used both at the same time, it would be difficult to prove the alternative was effective.

I have to disagree with you here Mariana. If we begin allowing any treatment that someone finds helpful there will be no limits. For every treatment whether its alternative or otherwise there is someone who will testify to its effectiveness no matter how crazy it is. Using anecdotal reports of effectiveness is deeply flawed measuring stick for inclusion into any health plan.

CAM medicine is problematic for all sorts of reasons that I don’t have the time to go into here but take a look at some of MacKenzie’s postings on this for a detailed analysis of the harms of alt med.

At a minimum, any treatment that is covered by a plan we all pay into should have to meet basic criteria of science based medicine or we will soon have run away costs covering nutty therapies from every end of the spectrum. Anyone who is bored with their life could open a CAM “clinic” and use “crystal energy” or “Pyramid power” to treat patients all while being reimbursed by the public.

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Posted: 29 May 2013 01:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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I partly agree and disagree, Macgyver.  What I was talking about does have scientific backing and is being researched as a potentially therapeutic part of a whole OT and/or PT plan.  I wasn’t talking about back cracking or supplements or even “crystal energy” as being covered though.

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Posted: 29 May 2013 03:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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mid atlantic - 29 May 2013 12:49 AM

I think they should be able to opt out of some things. Alternative treatments that don’t have any scientific evidence, for one.

If you want to use (S)CAM ‘treatments’, it should come out of your own pocket, just as you did before that awful 1990s law was passed.

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Posted: 29 May 2013 03:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Mriana - 29 May 2013 01:15 PM

I partly agree and disagree, Macgyver.  What I was talking about does have scientific backing and is being researched as a potentially therapeutic part of a whole OT and/or PT plan.  I wasn’t talking about back cracking or supplements or even “crystal energy” as being covered though.

They’ve been ‘investigating’ a whole lot of crap as being potentially therapeutic for 30 years at the Burzynski clinic. Tricking desperate people out of their money is apparently a ‘sound’ business practice. The government has set aside billions to see if there are any efficacious CAM treatments…..which turned out to be a total waste of money, time and resources…and yet they continue. This money could be better spent elsewhere.

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Posted: 29 May 2013 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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We don’t use massage therapy on our preemies where we work. No proof of efficacy, and personally, I can see it as being harmful.

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Posted: 29 May 2013 03:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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I don’t need a degree in agriculture to know that water is good for growing things.  And I don’t need scientific studies to prove that I would feel a damn sight better if I had weekly full body massages.

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Posted: 29 May 2013 03:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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TimB - 29 May 2013 03:24 PM

I don’t need a degree in agriculture to know that water is good for growing things.  And I don’t need scientific studies to prove that I would feel a damn sight better if I had weekly full body massages.

That may be true but we would all feel a lot better if we had sex regularly, a fancy car in our driveway, a three day weekend every week, and a monthly trip to the bahamas but I don’t think we should be paying for those things with health insurance just because they make us temporarily feel better. Where do we draw the line. Are we gong to pay for anything that makes us feel better?

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Posted: 29 May 2013 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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asanta - 29 May 2013 03:20 PM

We don’t use massage therapy on our preemies where we work. No proof of efficacy, and personally, I can see it as being harmful.

Might as well stop PT and OT too and put the therapist out of work, because I can do that on my own damn time.  Can’t see the proof of efficacy in paying for that when one can do it themselves.  No sense in paying for it.

[ Edited: 29 May 2013 04:09 PM by Mriana ]
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Posted: 29 May 2013 06:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Mriana - 29 May 2013 04:06 PM

Might as well stop PT and OT too and put the therapist out of work, because I can do that on my own damn time.  Can’t see the proof of efficacy in paying for that when one can do it themselves.  No sense in paying for it.

Miriana some of what OT and PT does can be done on your own and in fact the ultimate goal is to get you to a point where you can do it at home. You misunderstand what they do though if you are implying that anyone can do these treatments on their own from the start. OT and PT require a good knowledge of anatomy and physiology. If you try to design your own PT program without the proper training your’e as likely or more so to injure yourself further rather than improve your condition.

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Posted: 29 May 2013 06:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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macgyver - 29 May 2013 06:18 PM
Mriana - 29 May 2013 04:06 PM

Might as well stop PT and OT too and put the therapist out of work, because I can do that on my own damn time.  Can’t see the proof of efficacy in paying for that when one can do it themselves.  No sense in paying for it.

Miriana some of what OT and PT does can be done on your own and in fact the ultimate goal is to get you to a point where you can do it at home. You misunderstand what they do though if you are implying that anyone can do these treatments on their own from the start. OT and PT require a good knowledge of anatomy and physiology. If you try to design your own PT program without the proper training your’e as likely or more so to injure yourself further rather than improve your condition.

No, I’m just saying that sports med probably shouldn’t be covered since many people are so picky about things or maybe having insurance more individualized to cover those who participate in high risk things [for injury] such as sports, which would probably including massage therapy, but the employer shouldn’t be the one making such decisions for his employees.  You’d be surprised just how much anatomy and physiology those going into massage therapy have to learn.  It’s quite a bit or at least the program my son is about to finish.

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