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Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
Posted: 08 July 2013 09:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 121 ]
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Scott Mayers - 07 July 2013 08:25 PM
Greatest I am - 07 July 2013 01:14 PM
Scott Mayers - 02 July 2013 09:22 AM

The Gnostic concepts were already there in Egypt before Christianity. The Christians there adapted to the local standards by creating or recreating a version acceptable to the locals. Religious Gnosticism is just the fallout from the birth of writing that helped form Hinduism, for example. But it transitional areas where many people travel through to go somewhere else, as Egypt was, had a multicultural exposure in population. Because of this, I’d imagine the common denominator to businesses back then was to be accepting the differences of belief. So if you wanted to encourage interest and appeal, the best strategy would have been to create mystery to a secret truth that can only be revealed by yourself!! Some of these people may have been the source of the original Gypsies. And if you’ve been fooled by one, you’ve been “gypped”.

Anything written was held of significant meaning. The original transients would have collected them, have them parsed to be universal to any beliefs, and eventually used them as proof to the crowds of substantial truth. Some of these texts were Christian related and served to represent “a secret knowledge that requires your continued investment to discover.” Perhaps these stories (The New Testament) were developed for the original audiences of Egyptian tourists and tradesmen. And the Pauline versions were later adapted by a salesman who’d just come from their and wants to create business up north.? It seems reasonable. [Oh…I just left a second ago to take a trip in my time machine. Yeah…it’s true!]

Jesus wasn’t likely real. We know him as, “Jesus Christ.” But that was a title, not a name.  It was likely that the original Greek did have meaning contrary to what some say. The function of words was extremely important and a meaningless name would not sell. The fairest interpretation has to provide meaning. The closest one that seems relevant is that Jesus was adopted from Je Zeus literally, The Zeus meaning generally, “The God” or “I am God”. With “Christos” meaning one who is anointed or crowned, which implied that he was a Caesar or King of man. So Jesus Christ = “God’s King to mankind” which is the same as claiming that he is the savior or messiah. It fits with the meaning of the Hebrew, Joshua as well.

During these early days, the Jews were being dispersed by the Romans from Israel due to the upheaval and wars. The destruction of the Temple was the means to crush them for good. But it lived on in the diaspora. Locally, in hostile territories, some Jews found it tactical to survive by recreating their religion to be more adaptable to the locations they were in. It was likely a literal blow-back conspiracy by a group of real men and women who used their own fake testimonies to foster a favoritism for the Jewish beliefs and customs. The original conspirators would probably be surprised at its success. One interesting thing that I do find rather suspicious is the lack of criticism to Christianity by religious Jews even today. It makes me wonder if they have written acknowledgement of such a plan within Israel hidden somewhere safe? (I assure you, I’m not anti-Semitic! I do question the State of Israel, however.)

This I found interesting and compelling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJgvws0ZYUE

Kudos on your good knowledge of the history of my religion.
I am a Gnostic Christian and esoteric ecumenist.

Regards
DL

I’m not sure how Atwill’s theory fit. The only initial response from me without hearing his argument is that he proposes a conspiracy of the Roman’s, not the diaspora Jews trying to be accepted, as I was proposing. At first, I am a little confused by how the Roman’s Flavian family would choose to invest in creating a religion founded on the Jews rather than their own Roman gods.

Which did you find “interesting and compelling”...what I said or what Atwill says or both? I’m not sure if you were being facetious or sincere?

Religions have always been controlled by political systems.
Rome did not really have Roman Gods. They absorbed whatever God’s they came across and were basically atheist.

I find compelling the fact that in The War of the Jews, Josephus writes in many of the same scenarios that are in the N T.

Rome wanted to kill off, if you will, the militant Jewish view of their messiah. The one who was to live and rule.

They did so by making Jesus a Rome supporting pacifist.
Rome wanted that the temple never be rebuilt and so far so good.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 08 July 2013 11:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 122 ]
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I checked out a radio interview by Atwill and it sounds like he’s worth the investment to read. It bugged me that the interview only allowed the first hour unless you pay, though. I’ll read the book. Thanks for that source, GIA.

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Posted: 08 July 2013 11:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 123 ]
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Scott Mayers - 08 July 2013 11:09 AM

I checked out a radio interview by Atwill and it sounds like he’s worth the investment to read. It bugged me that the interview only allowed the first hour unless you pay, though. I’ll read the book. Thanks for that source, GIA.

My pleasure.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 08 July 2013 12:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 124 ]
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George Willcox, an archaeologist at the CNRS (National Center for Scientific Research) in France, commenting on the Zagros Mountain 12,000 year old wheat find in this July’s science journals says there is the possibility that agriculture emerged from one region further back in time and that crop cultivation is even older than these ancient human settlements suggest. The thing that’s most astounding is that it extends the Fertile Crescent much farther east for the early agricultural sites, which are dated to 11,500 to 11,000 years ago.

Mike, I won’t respond to each category as most of them seem to relate to the same topic and at the expense of being pedantic let me add that your info appears cherry picked and predominately from Archeobotany, just one of many disciplines used to either create an hypothesis or bolster a popular theory. Don’t misinterpret my meaning here, Archeobotany adds much needed knowledge to archeology just as forensic anthropology does but to form a complete picture of a civilization you need THEM All! And yes the Internet and NPR are buzzing with the above mentioned recent find concerning archaic wheat production. And this find may indicate an extension of the Fertile Crescent further East. In fact, and this wasn’t detailed in the report, certain sites within the Fertile crescent show a settlement pattern BEFORE the domestication of plants in general (once again see Stringer). Also, colleagues of Wilcox, notably Hillman and Bogaard both suggest exercising caution before jumping to the usual conclusions about the find. Data has to be collected, sifted for facts, papers have to be written and peer reviewed so that people don’t jump to conclusions and begin building on fallacious data.
Just to be clear the majority of archeologists, historians, anthropologists, cultural and physical determined that what we designate as civilization began within the Fertile Crescent. It really doesn’t matter which fruits and vegetables made itinto the area from the outside as it’s an archeological given that cultural diffusion easily spreads both plants and artifacts throughout areas of human concentration, e.g. Bronze and iron working, the invention of the bow (same as here in America but much later) and plants such as corn, beans and squash, all from Central and South America. In fact I just now visited one of the best known effigy mounds in the US that happens to be in our immediate area, The Great Serpent, an area of paleoindian concentration. Artifacts from there, copper and obsidian most definitely came from Mexico with the copper from the Wisconsin area clearly showing artifact diffusion as well as incised sea shells with Mississipian culture artwork. Carbon found in the mound dates it to 2,700 BP. The area had been continuously settled for at least 9,000 years, placing the site well within the paleo-Indian period (13,000-7,000 BP) and unless they find clearly extraordinary evidence to the contrary, which they haven’t the physical and cultural evidence stands.

This from the Archeology Society: McGuire Gibson, a leading authority on the Mesopotamian area lamenting the looting of Iraqi museums depicting the FIRST examples of a monarchical hierarchy

http://archive.archaeology.org/0307/etc/civilization.html


Once again, just an example of one of many experts in their field who sustains the theory about civilization in the Fertile Cresecent.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 10 July 2013 01:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 125 ]
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Thank for the input and work Cap’t Jack.

You are correct; my look at this is from a layman’s view. There is just so many item’s that do not fit or are missing in the Fertile Crescent for me to accept that as the birth of modern man. I’ll bet you a cup of coffee that in three years you will see the birth area moving to India.

The mounds, I wish they would do more research on the mounds. I read a little about them, must have been twenty-five plus years ago. I remember thinking that some of the mounds are located where there was vast flooding and the mounds would have provided a comfortable location until the waters drained. 

Some times the White Papers out on the scientific research are unreadable to me. They are mainly mathematical equations with scientific meaning.

And I may disagree with the fact that civilization is not about plants and animals. I think we would not have what is found in the Fertile Crescent if it was not for the technological advancements out of India. Man’s footprint of protein development cannot be found in the Fertile Crescent. The use of and methods of growing protein - yes, but the development - no. Without protein there is no civilization.

McGurire Gibson, is a top Fertile Crescent researcher. But in his book “Searching for Vedic India.
“explains that if the first cities indeed occurred during the Ubaid period, then archaeologists have to wrestle with a tough concept that urban centers appeared before the invention of writing and “before the appearance of several other criteria that we think of as marking “civilization.’’” “We need to reconsider our ideas about the beginning of civilization, pushing the time further back.”

Fingers do point to an advanced civilization, missing somewhere – a forerunner that seeded its brilliance in Egypt, Sumer, and Mesoamerica.

Then Mr. Gibson’s book starts talking about India.

In my words Mr. Gibson is saying, we need to start looking in pre-history time for civilization.

I’ll stop here, you get my idea. Top people like Mr. Gibson is guiding you to India.

Yesterday news, http://www.nbcnews.com/science/dna-traces-ancient-roots-american-dogs-asia-6C10588098

“A new genetic analysis of hundreds of American dog breeds reveals that the canines’ ancient roots trace back to Asia. On average, less than 30 percent of their DNA comes from Europe, suggesting dogs came to the Americas with the ancient humans who established pre-Columbian civilizations.”

“Ancient companions
Dogs were first domesticated in Asia about 30,000 years ago. Fossil evidence for domesticated dogs in America dates to nearly 10,000 years ago. Most researchers believe the first American settlers brought canines with them across the Bering Strait.”

Mike

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Posted: 12 July 2013 05:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 126 ]
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You are correct; my look at this is from a layman’s view. There is just so many item’s that do not fit or are missing in the Fertile Crescent for me to accept that as the birth of modern man. I’ll bet you a cup of coffee that in three years you will see the birth area moving to India.

You’re on Mike and if we’re still corresponding in three years one of us is going to enjoy a great cup of Joe. In the meantime let’s let the evidence decide. Oh, and I like mine freshly ground and black and don’t tell me that coffee was first used in India, because it wasn’t! As to the Serpent Mound in particular, it was built on the lip of an Impact crater and well away from any flood plain. And as to my point concerning Archeobotany, as I said, don’t put all your eggs in one basket. A littke advice to a layman would be to carefully examine all sources before making your hypotheses.

 

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 12 July 2013 12:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 127 ]
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Cap’t Jack

If U win, coffee just how U like.

It’s so political on the local as well as the upper levels. India has a high level of doctors working in the USA. Also NASA and Microsoft have a high percentage of India workers. I think we are going to see a turn a round and start to see a lot of research out of India. I know the India Government wants to get projects going.

I read the other day where Great Briton alone has 3M students studying from the Middle East and Asia.  And this is causing the conclusions of the science to be looked at from view points other than European.

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Posted: 12 July 2013 05:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 128 ]
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It’s so political on the local as well as the upper levels. India has a high level of doctors working in the USA. Also NASA and Microsoft have a high percentage of India workers. I think we are going to see a turn a round and start to see a lot of research out of India. I know the India Government wants to get projects going.

As you may know, we have a tremendous influx of Indian immigrants to this country even in our neck of the woods. . The principle of our high school is Indian, raised in South Africa and several families have migrated here. We have for instance the Patel family and cousins. I taught their kids and They were all over achieves. Also several physicians have set up shop here as we have several hospitals in the Tristate area. Namaste.


Cap’t Jack

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