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Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
Posted: 11 June 2013 06:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

I wonder if Jesus believed in Him? If so, why did he perish?  Moreover, why have so many people who believed in God/Jesus perished in holy wars? And in spite of the rumored longevity of early man, science has not discovered any fossils of any 800 year old human. On the contrary, humans are living longer now than ever before in history.

[ Edited: 11 June 2013 07:31 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 11 June 2013 07:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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Write4U - 11 June 2013 06:13 PM

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

I wonder if Jesus believed in Him? If so, why did he perish?  Moreover, why have so many people who believed in God/Jesus perished in holy wars?

Perversity. Sadism. Cruelty.

Lois

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Posted: 11 June 2013 07:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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Oddly, there are species who enjoy everlasting life without belief in a God.

Non-human biological longevity[edit]

Main article: List of long-living organisms

Currently living:
Methuselah: 4,800-year-old bristlecone pine in the White Mountains of California, the oldest currently living organism known.

Non-living:
Possibly 250 million year-old bacteria, bacillus permians, were revived from stasis after being found in sodium chloride crystals in a cavern in New Mexico. Russell Vreeland, and colleagues from West Chester University in Pennsylvania, reported on October 18, 2000 that they had revived the halobacteria after bathing them with a nutrient solution. Having supposedly survived for 250 million years, they would be the oldest living organisms ever recorded.[26] However, their findings have not been universally accepted.[27]
A bristlecone pine nicknamed “Prometheus”, felled in the Great Basin National Park in Nevada in 1964, found to be about 4,900 years old, is the longest-lived single organism known.[28]
The quahog clam (Arctica islandica) is exceptionally long-lived, with a maximum recorded age of 507 years, the longest of any animal.[29] Other clams of the species have been recorded as living up to 374 years.[30]
Lamellibrachia luymesi, a deep-sea cold-seep tubeworm, is estimated to reach ages of over 250 years based on a model of its growth rates.[31]
Hanako (Koi Fish) was the longest-lived vertebrate ever recorded at 226 years.
A Bowhead Whale killed in a hunt was found to be approximately 211 years old (possibly up to 245 years old), the longest lived mammal known.[32]
Tu’i Malila, a radiated tortoise presented to the Tongan royal family by Captain Cook, lived for over 185 years. It is the oldest documented reptile. Adwaitya, an Aldabra Giant Tortoise, may have lived for up to 250 years.

Biological immortality[edit]

Main article: Biological immortality

Certain exotic organisms do not seem to be subject to aging and can live indefinitely. Examples include Tardigrades and Hydras. That is not to say that these organisms cannot die, merely that they only die as a result of disease or injury rather than age-related deterioration (and that they are not subject to the Hayflick limit).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longevity

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Posted: 11 June 2013 08:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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Write4U - 11 June 2013 07:45 PM

Oddly, there are species who enjoy everlasting life without belief in a God.

Non-human biological longevity[edit]

Main article: List of long-living organisms

Currently living:
Methuselah: 4,800-year-old bristlecone pine in the White Mountains of California, the oldest currently living organism known.

Non-living:
Possibly 250 million year-old bacteria, bacillus permians, were revived from stasis after being found in sodium chloride crystals in a cavern in New Mexico. Russell Vreeland, and colleagues from West Chester University in Pennsylvania, reported on October 18, 2000 that they had revived the halobacteria after bathing them with a nutrient solution. Having supposedly survived for 250 million years, they would be the oldest living organisms ever recorded.[26] However, their findings have not been universally accepted.[27]
A bristlecone pine nicknamed “Prometheus”, felled in the Great Basin National Park in Nevada in 1964, found to be about 4,900 years old, is the longest-lived single organism known.[28]
The quahog clam (Arctica islandica) is exceptionally long-lived, with a maximum recorded age of 507 years, the longest of any animal.[29] Other clams of the species have been recorded as living up to 374 years.[30]
Lamellibrachia luymesi, a deep-sea cold-seep tubeworm, is estimated to reach ages of over 250 years based on a model of its growth rates.[31]
Hanako (Koi Fish) was the longest-lived vertebrate ever recorded at 226 years.
A Bowhead Whale killed in a hunt was found to be approximately 211 years old (possibly up to 245 years old), the longest lived mammal known.[32]
Tu’i Malila, a radiated tortoise presented to the Tongan royal family by Captain Cook, lived for over 185 years. It is the oldest documented reptile. Adwaitya, an Aldabra Giant Tortoise, may have lived for up to 250 years.

Biological immortality[edit]


Main article: Biological immortality

Certain exotic organisms do not seem to be subject to aging and can live indefinitely. Examples include Tardigrades and Hydras. That is not to say that these organisms cannot die, merely that they only die as a result of disease or injury rather than age-related deterioration (and that they are not subject to the Hayflick limit).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longevity


But we’re not talking about longer lives on earth.  We’re talking about “everlasting life.” when the bible speaks of everlasting life it means life after death, not before. It is not referring to biological life.

Lois

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Posted: 11 June 2013 09:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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I know but if you never die is that not everlasting life? After death can we call that life?  Life after death seems a little conflicting.  Is the soul a life form? If yes, then is god a life form? If it is a life form can it be everlasting and/or eternal? Round n Round we go.

[ Edited: 12 June 2013 03:58 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 12 June 2013 12:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Lois - 11 June 2013 07:01 PM
Write4U - 11 June 2013 06:13 PM

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

I wonder if Jesus believed in Him? If so, why did he perish?  Moreover, why have so many people who believed in God/Jesus perished in holy wars?

Perversity. Sadism. Cruelty.

Lois

and lots and lots of wine

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before we have permission to trash them?

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Posted: 12 June 2013 03:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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Hehe, now I’m hooked on the mythical gods and their fascinating and disturbingly familiar emotional characters.

Father gods
by Micha F. Lindemans

The term for supreme gods who, in certain pantheons, have a prominent place and who from themselves, or with one or more partners, engendered children). The father god resides in heaven and is usually the personification of that heaven. Thus he is at the same time the sky-god, ruler of the sun and rain, thunder and lightning, and as such a fertility god (who brings warmth and water). Finally, the father gods are also the creators of mankind, which he punishes or rewards. Prototypes of father gods are Uranus and Zeus, Yu-huang, and Ahura Mazda. These gods are usually represented as a bull, ram, phallus, or ithyphallic god; all symbols of their life-giving force.


http://www.pantheon.org/articles/f/father_gods.html

and while I was reading I started to substitute the word potential for the word god every time it appeared in the story.
The results are fascinating, check the difference below.

The term for supreme potentials who, in certain plenums have a prominent place and who from themselves, or with one or more partners, engendered children). The father potential resides in heaven (plenum) and is usually the personification of that heaven. Thus he is at the same time the sky-potential, ruler of the sun and rain, thunder and lightning, and as such a fertility potential (who brings warmth and water). Finally, the father potentials are also the creators of mankind, which he punishes or rewards. Prototypes of father potentials are Uranus and Zeus, Yu-huang, and Ahura Mazda. These potentials are usually represented as a bull, ram, phallus, or ithyphallic potential; all symbols of their life-giving force.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/f/father_gods.html
Tales and experiences all relate to emotionally. It touches all of us emotionally, it is a common spirit.

PHTHONOS (or Phthonus) was the spirit (daimon) of envy and jealousy. He was associated in particular with the jealous passions of love. In one ancient Greek vase painting he even appears in the guise of an Eros (winged love-god) in the company of Aphrodite.

The female counterpart of Phthonos was Nemesis, goddess of jealous retribution, who was often concerned with matters of love, as well as indignation at undeserved good fortune.

http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Phthonos.html

Trying to think of possible common denominators which could be addressed as a shared spirituality, it seems to me that mythology is actually a very accurate account of common denominators and behaviors in humans, even at that time.

In mythology a lot of gods represent common human nature, a species with a common potential, which by most is assumed to be a god or spirit.
But substitute the word potential for those two and knowledge of the human psyche becomes apparent.

Now when I read about mythology I automatically substitute the word ‘potential’ for god or spirit. And then it all makes sense. Mythology is (was) based on available knowledge of things which man had observed. And some the philosophers at that time were very sophisticated thinkers (giants even).

[ Edited: 12 June 2013 04:05 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 12 June 2013 06:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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Mike Yohe - 11 June 2013 03:14 PM

Respect is gone as you do not see the immorality in the Abrahamic cults.
We are done here.
Regards
DL

DL help me out here. I understand the questions “Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?”
Now you are bringing in the Abrahamic cults.

My understanding in the Abrahamic cults is that God is one. And that he used Jesus’ body. Jesus the god did not die. Only the body that he used while at earth. This is not my thinking this is from Christians defending their religion. I argued the blood of Jesus and all that, but I was told the sprit of God left the body before it died. That man is not able to kill God. If God died then the religion would be over, correct. But I view that as a Christian view only.
Because the dictionary has the definition “deicide” 1. a person who kills a god.

You would have to think that at sometime in history somebody was killing gods to have had the reason to come up with a name for it.

My thinking is that Jesus was trying to convert the people to the Gnostic way of thinking. There is no inherited sin that I am aware of. So it may have been his way to get rid of the sin so he could communicate his ideas one step at a time, sort of spoon feeding the people.

You have the Christian dogma about right for most of the Jesus cults. Christians are one of the Abrahamic cults so I did not make a new introduction. I just renamed then in this O P.

Their God is supposed to be one for sure yet they have him sacrificing the son persona to the father persona. That is two.
If only one, then we all know that it is impossible to sacrifice one’s self to one’s self.

You are correct in Jesus being a Gnostic. If he was real. But without all the fantasy, miracles and magic.
Jesus is only real to me in the esoteric sense. He is not really real.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

Regards
DL

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Posted: 12 June 2013 06:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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Write4U - 11 June 2013 06:13 PM

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

I wonder if Jesus believed in Him? If so, why did he perish?  Moreover, why have so many people who believed in God/Jesus perished in holy wars? And in spite of the rumored longevity of early man, science has not discovered any fossils of any 800 year old human. On the contrary, humans are living longer now than ever before in history.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Seems that no believer has stepped up for 2,000 years.
My guess is that none exist.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 12 June 2013 06:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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Lois - 11 June 2013 08:51 PM

[


But we’re not talking about longer lives on earth.  We’re talking about “everlasting life.” when the bible speaks of everlasting life it means life after death, not before. It is not referring to biological life.

Lois

I do not agree after reading the myth.

The tree of life was for biological consumption and the dogma says that if A & E had eaten of it they would still be with us.
If eternity was to be non-biological then it should not have that biological requirement to activate our immortality.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 12 June 2013 10:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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Greatest I AM   Post #54

You points are very clear.
Look at data outside the bible.
The conclusion is the Jesus was a real man.

At the time of Jesus the Jews of Judah were hanging on by a string. Many of the people had changed to different religions. The contract in the OT was up and God reneged on his part of the contract.
Jesus was not alone in pushing the people to the Gnostic ways. Others were there before him. And Jesus was no longer a Jew; we know this because of the burial methods which started before Jesus but only carried on by just a few after Jesus.

Salem was known as the city of the Gods and was open to all religions sort of a hot spot for the many religions. When David built the City of David next to Salem he renamed the city Jerusalem.

If Jesus went to college in Egypt to learn religion, he would have been taught healing, banking and a lot of ceremonial rituals. Remember everything that had made Egypt great at the time of Jesus had came out of India at some time, the connections were huge.

If he was real. But without all the fantasy, miracles and magic.
Egypt was still a land of superstitions, a land of fantasy, miracles and magic. Jesus would have been taught these exact items at college as part of his learning.
It was all part of being a healer. Look at the mind set of the people in Egypt. The god of War, “L” name was never written down. That was so nobody could put a spell on him. Just writing a name down had magic in itself. 

Save yourself sometime and look at Jesus as being a real man.

The Christians stories, well they were all written sometime latter in a different country. Stay away from the junk.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 11:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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I think that a historical, non-supernatural Jesus, most likely, did exist.

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“Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb… We are bound to others, past and present… And by each crime and every kindness… We birth our future.”  Sonmi, 2144.

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Posted: 12 June 2013 12:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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Mike Yohe - 12 June 2013 10:59 AM

Greatest I AM   Post #54

You points are very clear.
Look at data outside the bible.
The conclusion is the Jesus was a real man.

At the time of Jesus the Jews of Judah were hanging on by a string. Many of the people had changed to different religions. The contract in the OT was up and God reneged on his part of the contract.
Jesus was not alone in pushing the people to the Gnostic ways. Others were there before him. And Jesus was no longer a Jew; we know this because of the burial methods which started before Jesus but only carried on by just a few after Jesus.

Salem was known as the city of the Gods and was open to all religions sort of a hot spot for the many religions. When David built the City of David next to Salem he renamed the city Jerusalem.

If Jesus went to college in Egypt to learn religion, he would have been taught healing, banking and a lot of ceremonial rituals. Remember everything that had made Egypt great at the time of Jesus had came out of India at some time, the connections were huge.

If he was real. But without all the fantasy, miracles and magic.
Egypt was still a land of superstitions, a land of fantasy, miracles and magic. Jesus would have been taught these exact items at college as part of his learning.
It was all part of being a healer. Look at the mind set of the people in Egypt. The god of War, “L” name was never written down. That was so nobody could put a spell on him. Just writing a name down had magic in itself. 

Save yourself sometime and look at Jesus as being a real man.

The Christians stories, well they were all written sometime latter in a different country. Stay away from the junk.

Jesus, a man, perhaps. Perhaps just a make believe one.
I don’t think we can ever know for sure.

I prefer to embrace the scriptures as I know where they likely came from. Rome.
I like to argue with Christians and try to save them and to do so I find it handy to know more of their works than they do so that I can use it against them. It is not like a lot of it makes moral sense and they should be made aware of this fact.

I just finished this book and found it compelling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJgvws0ZYUE

Regards
DL

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Posted: 12 June 2013 01:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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TimB - 12 June 2013 11:20 AM

I think that a historical, non-supernatural Jesus, most likely, did exist.

Indeed. It was a common name apparently.

The Jesus ossuary or bone box has Jesus written on it but as far as I know, Jesus was Joshua ben Joseph.

Even with that, it cannot be right as that is our interpretation of his name.

Imagine way back then having those in the Middle East called Peter, Paul and Mary. How droll.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 12 June 2013 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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DL they looked at names differently. Names evolved.
Just guessing Paul for example would have been ul –pa.
Right to left reading.
Pa would have a meaning as well as UL had a meaning.
Most older words came from two letter root words.
Have not been able to find the reason why.

Reason itself tells me.
Rhyme was the reason. Most all history, math, science and stuff were rhymed.
You learned by rhymes at schools.
Islam today is still taught that way, but they are cheating by following written words.
The idea of rhyme is, if it doesn’t rhyme then its wrong. 

Check out the old Islam religious text, they had trouble making it rhyme.
And a lot of the text that does rhyme makes no sense at all.

The trail of rhyme leads to India and the Rig Veda.

It was used in the Canaan area and Egypt used it too.

Is = Land,  ra = God of Egypt, el = The

Right to left reading, “The God’s Land” or Israel.

In “The God’s Land” you had the “City of God’s” or Salem, known today as Jerusalem.

Disclaimer, I’m no expert, this is my understanding.

[ Edited: 12 June 2013 02:04 PM by MikeYohe ]
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