5 of 9
5
Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
Posted: 12 June 2013 03:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
Write4U - 11 June 2013 09:32 PM

I know but if you never die is that not everlasting life? After death can we call that life?  Life after death seems a little conflicting.  Is the soul a life form? If yes, then is god a life form? If it is a life form can it be everlasting and/or eternal? Round n Round we go.

Are you counting on living on earth forever?  I doubt anything lives forever, and as of now, 100 years or thereabouts seems to be the limit for humans.  Sure it might be extended one say but probably not all that much for you and me.  Besides that, the quality of life declines fast after 90.  Do you really want to live more years in declining health and wracked with dementia? How many big advances are likely to be made before you reach your dotage?

Lois

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2013 03:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3162
Joined  2011-08-15

It looks like 116 years is about as old as we can live. The oldest man, a Japanese citizen born in 1897 just passed away today.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/06/12/japan-oldest-person-dies/2413945/

I agree that quality of life is of primary importance. Most of us live in a bubble of immortality and continue to believe that there will be a tomorrow. BTW, religion gives us hope that there will be a continuous life beyond death, hence it’s appeal. Who actually contemplates their own ultimate demise? Believing that there is actually a Valhalla makes living a lot easier for most people. It’s self deceptive, but insulates us from the pain of separation or the idea that we are finite.


Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2013 04:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  623
Joined  2013-06-01

Cap’t Jack,

Just a thought.
Organized religion, let’s say goes back 17,000 years.
So the Vedic was the major thinking for 12,000 years.
And religions that evolved thought Vedic are still here today, mainly in India, Pakistan and China.

My understanding of the Cast System was that the people looked forward to dyeing as a way to move up the Cast System.

When they got to the top of the Cast System they went to Heaven. But their standing on earth was critical as to which planet (or heaven) they went to.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2013 04:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6055
Joined  2009-02-26
Lois - 12 June 2013 03:38 PM
Write4U - 11 June 2013 09:32 PM

I know but if you never die is that not everlasting life? After death can we call that life?  Life after death seems a little conflicting.  Is the soul a life form? If yes, then is god a life form? If it is a life form can it be everlasting and/or eternal? Round n Round we go.

Are you counting on living on earth forever?  I doubt anything lives forever, and as of now, 100 years or thereabouts seems to be the limit for humans.  Sure it might be extended one say but probably not all that much for you and me.  Besides that, the quality of life declines fast after 90.  Do you really want to live more years in declining health and wracked with dementia? How many big advances are likely to be made before you reach your dotage?

Lois

Sorry, Lois, for not making myself clear. The question was rhetorical. But as shown in my quote (#48), there are indeed organisms that have the ability to live forever, or until the earth dies.

Main article: Biological immortality
Certain exotic organisms do not seem to be subject to aging and can live indefinitely. Examples include Tardigrades and Hydras. That is not to say that these organisms cannot die, merely that they only die as a result of disease or injury rather than age-related deterioration (and that they are not subject to the Hayflick limit).

Hayflick limit, Wiki,
The Hayflick limit[Note 1] (or Hayflick phenomenon) is the number of times a normal human cell population will divide until cell division stops. Empirical evidence shows that the telomeres associated with each cell’s DNA will get slightly shorter with each new cell division until they shorten to a critical length.[1][2]

The concept of the Hayflick limit was advanced by Leonard Hayflick in 1961,[1] at the Wistar Institute in Philadelphia. Hayflick demonstrated that a population of normal human fetal cells in a cell culture will divide between 40 and 60 times. The population will then enter a senescence phase, which refutes the contention by Nobel laureate Alexis Carrel that normal cells are immortal. Each mitosis slightly shortens each of the telomeres on the DNA of the cells. Telomere shortening in humans eventually makes cell division impossible, and this aging of the cell population appears to correlate with the overall physical aging of the human body. Natural maintenance of the length of the telomeric region appears to prevent genomic instability and helps to curb the development of cell mutations that may lead to cancer.

It is obvious that human DNA does not allow us to live forever.  But my question remains, after death how do we “live on”?  Is God alive? If so as what? What are the properties of Heaven?

[ Edited: 12 June 2013 04:58 PM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2013 07:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3162
Joined  2011-08-15

Cap’t Jack,

Just a thought.
Organized religion, let’s say goes back 17,000 years.
So the Vedic was the major thinking for 12,000 years.
And religions that evolved thought Vedic are still here today, mainly in India, Pakistan and China.

My understanding of the Cast System was that the people looked forward to dyeing as a way to move up the Cast System.

When they got to the top of the Cast System they went to Heaven. But their standing on earth was critical as to which planet (or heaven) they went to.

I wouldn’t put organized religion beyond it’s formation in ancient Sumerian culture, roughly 5,000 ya Whereas the Vedic belief system began ca. 3,500 ya and is a bit younger. That’s organized religion with a pantheon of gods, tempes and a religious heirarchy. And my knowledge of the caste system is limited but isn’t the point to rise through the various castes in order to escape reincarnation? Isn’t that the actual goal of the Vedic system to become a part of god or the oversoul? So the adherent is actually attempting to escape the cycle and be absorbed into a higher intelligence not especially seeking immortality as an individual would in one of the Abrahamic beliefs.

 

Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2013 07:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3071
Joined  2011-11-04

An archeological site in Turkey, Gobekli Tepe, has monuments that are suggestive of some sort of temple ruins.  This suggests some sort of organized religious activity, dated between 9,000 and 11,000 ya, pre-dating agrarian societies.  http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/gobekli-tepe.html

 Signature 

As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2013 08:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3162
Joined  2011-08-15

An archeological site in Turkey, Gobekli Tepe, has monuments that are suggestive of some sort of temple ruins.  This suggests some sort of organized religious activity, dated between 9,000 and 11,000 ya, pre-dating agrarian societies.  http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/gobekli-tepe.html

I’m familiar with that site Tim but it appears to be more of an anomaly and not a settlement as so far archeologists haven’t found remains of a permanent settlement pattern. It’s a fascinating find though but what I pointed out in reference to organized religious practices was a theocratically dominated city-state with a heirachry and tempes created for continuous group worship. That plus the first form of true writing to record these events and the legends that surrounded their gods, some of which was borrowed by the Semites BTW. After all Abraham was supposed to have lived in the Sumerian city of Ur, if he actually existed.


Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2013 08:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
Greatest I am - 10 June 2013 10:05 AM

To those who do not believe in free will within the bounds of nature and physics, I have a test that proves to you that you have a free will or freedom to choose.

Let me know if you have taken this test or want to.

Regards
DL

You appear to be misunderstanding what free will and determinism are.  If I should “want to” take the test does not mean I have free will, as you seem to imply.  The point is what would be driving me to “want to”  take the test. That desire doesn’t come out of left field.  If i want to take it, it’s because determining factors I am unaware of are pushing me in that direction.  If I (or someone else) did not want to take the test, it would also be because of determining factors. The test of free will or no free will is not in the wanting or not wanting to do something.  It has to do with what brings you to that decision.  My contention is that it is not a matter of free will (whatever that is, anyway), it’s determining factors we have no control over or even awareness of.

Lois

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2013 09:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  623
Joined  2013-06-01

With what I have read (white papers), I use 12K before the Flood of 2807 BC. Several archaeologist are now saying quit possibly 15 to 20K, The archaeologist in India swear 30K plus. But I would like outside countries to agree first.
The DNA test of the cereal grains show a minimum of 20K years of professionally SELECTIVELY farming. Selectively means to pick you best producing seeds for next years harvest.
The Hyksos moved with the grains to Egypt in 1700BC. So we are looking at 29.7K for the India religions. So I reduced that down to 17,000 years because I knew it might be in question. 
This is before written language. But not before spoken language. The Veda teachings of the stars, math, science, religion, and laws of the land were all in rhyme. Like the Islam is in rhyme today.
So when Ur was in mud huts, the Indus valley had two story homes with running water, bathrooms, and sewer systems. Swimming pools were common. The building bricks were all the same size in the country. 
Glass was being manufactured. This predates the history books. Right now they are trying to figure out how they were able to drill holes in the glass. And the only way they have been able to reproduce the glass beads is by using wire. Problem is history does not have metal until thousands of years latter.
With the sizes of the granaries they had to be very organized.
The seals used in trade and banking have been found in Sumer.
The cowry shells that were used in the Middle East and Africa came from India.

When I started my research the Hyksos built the kings winter castle in The Land of Goshen, Egypt. The winter castle was a fort called Avaris. History books today still say it was only a story and Avaris has never been found and may not even exist. 
A couple years back they found Avaris.
I bet they do not find any graves of the Hyksos because of the sky burial. Egyptians use ground burials.
To believe the little villages in Sumer could have the Genesis’s story and come up with writing is a little hard for me to believe.
Now look at all the fruits that had been domesticated from the wild, like apples and oranges and the garden vegetables.  Not from Sumer but from India. All the fruit and nuts grown in Sumer were domesticated and came from India. 

DNA is rewriting histories timeline.

I’m open and willing to not even use a date. It is the thoughts that count.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2013 10:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  623
Joined  2013-06-01

Cap’t Jack   Post #65

I do not separate religion from government in that time of history. Only well established governments have been able to get to that point. But I have to say that the Rig Veda was somewhat separated from the king as they were not one.
So don’t look for organized religion like today. My thinking is if they had a government, it was religious. And there is your organized religion.
Taxes were collected by the religious side of government for a long time.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2013 03:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  604
Joined  2011-08-10
Mike Yohe - 12 June 2013 01:55 PM

DL they looked at names differently. Names evolved.
Just guessing Paul for example would have been ul –pa.
Right to left reading.
Pa would have a meaning as well as UL had a meaning.
Most older words came from two letter root words.
Have not been able to find the reason why.

Reason itself tells me.
Rhyme was the reason. Most all history, math, science and stuff were rhymed.
You learned by rhymes at schools.
Islam today is still taught that way, but they are cheating by following written words.
The idea of rhyme is, if it doesn’t rhyme then its wrong. 

Check out the old Islam religious text, they had trouble making it rhyme.
And a lot of the text that does rhyme makes no sense at all.

The trail of rhyme leads to India and the Rig Veda.

It was used in the Canaan area and Egypt used it too.

Is = Land,  ra = God of Egypt, el = The

Right to left reading, “The God’s Land” or Israel.

In “The God’s Land” you had the “City of God’s” or Salem, known today as Jerusalem.

Disclaimer, I’m no expert, this is my understanding.

In Africa even today. Ask for some history and they sing you the story.

It would have been a natural for those with no written language as it helps memory.

Remember singing the alphabet?

We likely all do.

Regards
DL

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2013 04:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  604
Joined  2011-08-10
Lois - 12 June 2013 08:30 PM
Greatest I am - 10 June 2013 10:05 AM

To those who do not believe in free will within the bounds of nature and physics, I have a test that proves to you that you have a free will or freedom to choose.

Let me know if you have taken this test or want to.

Regards
DL

You appear to be misunderstanding what free will and determinism are.  If I should “want to” take the test does not mean I have free will, as you seem to imply.  The point is what would be driving me to “want to”  take the test. That desire doesn’t come out of left field.  If i want to take it, it’s because determining factors I am unaware of are pushing me in that direction.  If I (or someone else) did not want to take the test, it would also be because of determining factors. The test of free will or no free will is not in the wanting or not wanting to do something.  It has to do with what brings you to that decision.  My contention is that it is not a matter of free will (whatever that is, anyway), it’s determining factors we have no control over or even awareness of.

Lois

I disagree.

And yes, the will is driven by information. It has to be. How else could you decide or choose what set of information is valid and should be followed by the will.

Before that thinking process starts, our instincts, which default to cooperation, are in force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Regards
DL

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 June 2013 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2423
Joined  2007-09-03
Greatest I am - 31 May 2013 09:01 AM

Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?


Regards
DL

I wouldn’t call it egotistical because they are thinking He dies for everyone’s sins for all time.
Bonkers—yeah.

The question of how do sacrifices work is never explained clearly and usually sidestepped with a “God is a mystery”  kind of answer….

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 June 2013 08:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3162
Joined  2011-08-15

With what I have read (white papers), I use 12K before the Flood of 2807 BC. Several archaeologist are now saying quit possibly 15 to 20K, The archaeologist in India swear 30K plus. But I would like outside countries to agree first.
The DNA test of the cereal grains show a minimum of 20K years of professionally SELECTIVELY farming. Selectively means to pick you best producing seeds for next years harvest.
The Hyksos moved with the grains to Egypt in 1700BC. So we are looking at 29.7K for the India religions. So I reduced that down to 17,000 years because I knew it might be in question. 
This is before written language. But not before spoken language. The Veda teachings of the stars, math, science, religion, and laws of the land were all in rhyme. Like the Islam is in rhyme today.
So when Ur was in mud huts, the Indus valley had two story homes with running water, bathrooms, and sewer systems. Swimming pools were common. The building bricks were all the same size in the country. 
Glass was being manufactured. This predates the history books. Right now they are trying to figure out how they were able to drill holes in the glass. And the only way they have been able to reproduce the glass beads is by using wire. Problem is history does not have metal until thousands of years latter.
With the sizes of the granaries they had to be very organized.
The seals used in trade and banking have been found in Sumer.
The cowry shells that were used in the Middle East and Africa came from India.

When I started my research the Hyksos built the kings winter castle in The Land of Goshen, Egypt. The winter castle was a fort called Avaris. History books today still say it was only a story and Avaris has never been found and may not even exist. 
A couple years back they found Avaris.
I bet they do not find any graves of the Hyksos because of the sky burial. Egyptians use ground burials.
To believe the littDle villages in Sumer could have the Genesis’s story and come up with writing is a little hard for me to believe.
Now look at all the fruits that had been domesticated from the wild, like apples and oranges and the garden vegetables.  Not from Sumer but from India. All the fruit and nuts grown in Sumer were domesticated and came from India. 

DNA is rewriting histories timeline.

I’m open and willing to not even use a date. It is the thoughts that count.

I have absolutely no idea what you are using as a reference but culture in the Indus Valley began roughly 5,300 ya with the development of the Harrapan and Mohenjodaro cultures. A great bath was uncovered there but no temples worthy of the name and they had formed an as yet undecifered form of writing. Prior to the formation of the city, approx. . 9,000 ya, a primative form of
agriculture developed based on grain. It was an early Neolithic site, later formed into two distinct cities both of whom probably traded with Sumer and Egypt. So, being entirely contemporary with Sumer, Ur was hardly a village of mud huts. At that time every Sumerian City boasted of it’s own Ziggarut temple (the tower of Babel was patterned after them), priestly heirarchy, and established writing system to record trade transactions and epic folk stories including “The Epic of Gilgamesh” completely preserved on cuneiform tablets. So yes there is ample evidence to prove that the Genesis tales were derived from Sumerian writings. Archeologists have uncovered litterally thousands of the tablets providing anthropologists with a wealth of information about the Sumerians. It isn’t a matter of belief, it’s emperical evidence. And where is your proof that all fruits and nuts came from the Indus Valey? Why wouldn’t literate Sumerian traders have recorded this important transaction? Also, the Hyksos who ushered in the Middle Kingdom era in Egypt if memory serves me gave the Egyptians the war chariot and iron working. They were later driven out and the New Kingdom began. What exactly do you mean by “sky burial”? Are you referring to Scaffold burial? Why would a conquering people not absorb the culture (which they did BTW) of the conquered and bury their dead in the same manner as those around them? I’m not familiar with this form of burial ever being used in ancient Egypt.

 

Cap’t Jack

 Signature 

One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.

Thomas Paine

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 July 2013 05:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1283
Joined  2011-03-12

With what I have read (white papers), I use 12K before the Flood of 2807 BC.

There was no such flood. The deluge is a myth. See http://www.skepticreport.com/sr/?p=475

 Signature 

Question authority and think for yourself. Big Brother does not know best and never has.

Profile
 
 
   
5 of 9
5