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New member Mike, seeking the light.
Posted: 24 June 2013 04:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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My ideas have changed several times as to how this all came about. The nature of Gnostic thought is everyone has his own ideas and knowledge and some thought it was wrong to have preachers of the subject. A very large spectrum of teachings and methods.

We may be looking at a hundred different patterns of thought, now which ones do we connect to Jesus?

I think the teachings were getting more centralized in the university at Alexandria.

Would not surprise me if Jesus and Thomas got their training there.

Did Geza Vermaes use findings from the Nag Hammadi Library? That has been a gold mine of Gnostic information.

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Posted: 25 June 2013 10:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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The Bible & God
Part 1 of 3

As a Visionary my concepts and thoughts are not what you could call mainstream thinking even though I probably have more faults that the standard American. And I have most likely made more mistakes than the average guy, which I contribute to being a Visionary. When I take on a project I know that I am going to make a bunch of mistakes, and if I am not, then I probability not doing anything. The goal is not to make that one big mistake that puts you out of business.

First time I was called a “Visionary”, I got mad but couldn’t say anything because I respected the guys putting the label on me. They ran one of the biggest insurance and reinsurance companies in the country. So I looked into the title and it explained a lot of my actions and decisions.

Yep, I’m pumping myself up a little bit for the story I’m getting ready to tell you. But I do not think of myself as a genius, far from it. I went one month to sixth grade, had gone to over thirty schools in several states by then and was out of school as much as in school. The only constant was that I always worked. Went on my own at thirteen and traveled around as a farmhand, oil field roughneck and did road construction.

Found that I could make a lot of money and it did not cost me a lot for living expense. So I would work hard and save up a nest egg of money and then go chase a dream.

This is why instead of working at a career I work at projects. Thus I got an education in business and life that you can’t get at school.

I learned that sometime it only takes one mistake and you are out of business and yes it happened to me several times. It pays to research the project before you make your first step. I’ve looked at hundreds of projects that look and sounded good, but after research there is no way that I would have succeeded.

Thank god for the computer. It helped a lot, but my spelling was so bad that spell checker only worked half the time. In my mid-thirties I started slowing down enough to look at where I was at in education and I took off seven months to study at a computer college. But I still lacked in basic training. For example my spelling of “Wensday” was incorrect yet that was how I heard it and pronounced it. By my mid-forties I learn to spell the months of the year and get them in the correct order.

Maybe seven or eight books are all I had ever read by this time of my life. I tried reading books but when you can not pronounce a lot of the words it just gets boring as hell. I did read the newspapers daily and the Wall Street Journal was my favorite.

I had also spent time at the county law library researching business and employee laws.

I had a nice upper floor corner office in a building over looking the ocean that I owned and the computer signed my name on average of eighty-six hundred paychecks each week. So it wasn’t like I had a lot of problems with not being able to spell or write. I would put an idea down on paper and my secretary would translate it into proper terms for business. 

Now that I could do just about anything I wanted, I started to wonder about god and religion. I was use to working seven days a week and had not gone to church at all. Working in at the office so much was hard on my health. Well not just the office, the lunches and traveling to regional branch offices around the country was a life style that I hated. I thought of my job as more of a fireman, always putting out fires. I had fought to reach this position thinking life would be better for me. That was because for years I worked at my projects while working a full time job at what ever paid the most, and a lot of years that was the aerospace industry. I worked as a contractor. That is where I go into a factory to do a project. When done I am let go. That was right up my alley as far as working projects.

My view point on work is that at work I would take on jobs. I looked at each task as a job. So did the aerospace company, that’s why they gave every task a job number. What a lot of people call jobs is the career, different views of thinking.

Now not all projects are all work and not everything was a project. The year I turned nineteen, I don’t think I got out of bed that year. And I wanted to have my own bar, which I opened on my twenty-first birthday. That was a fun project. I have had many fun projects. Yes, I worked hard at them, but when you are having fun, it not the same type of work as at the factory.

I have retired three times now. But I couldn’t resist taking on projects. Older and much slower now, the projects I have taken on deal more with lawyers and federal courts and will take eight to fifteen years to complete. Thus I found the time to take on the project of the understanding of god and religion while doing these other projects.

I should explain the dynamics of a project. Define the problem and then find a solution and do this while incorporating a little bit of the Flower Power thinking that we should all strive to make the world a better place to live physically as well as mentally and strive to expand knowledge.

In my office there is a file cabinet drawer I use just to keep track of the projects I have researched over the years. I can’t even begin to remember them all, but once I view them it all comes back like I was working on them yesterday. Some makes me sad, some makes me laugh, and there are many I wish I had completed. 

Understanding Religion & God Project 

Not starting from scratch, because I had done past projects to understand banking, laws and the tax systems. All of which were part of religion in ancient times. What works for me is to go to the very beginning of a subject and move forward in time. 

The banking project was to be able to understand the Central Banks.  I never could figure out how the ancients were able to do trade without a central bank. Yet the system of borrowing was much more stable three thousand years ago than it is today, which indicates the use of a central banking system. And the money used was much more diversified to small areas and even towns. So a central bank was of much greater need then than today. 

The interest rates were the same if you were at Ireland, Babylon or Egypt. When Alexandria the Great came to power he raised the interest rates one half of a point.  So it was like WWI and WWII, the countries could be fighting but the bankers were all working together and of course the banks were the religious temples back then.

When the Roman Empire took over, most merchant banking was done in Greece because Greece allowed what we call LLC’s (limited liability corporations) and Rome did not.

Some of the oldest cruciform writing found to date is bar tabs, which is a system of loaning and a contract (tab) which requires a system of laws to be able to enforce the tab. 

Not being able to find the answers myself I searched for a professor who was an expert on the subject. Finding the professor I told him the problems I was encountering. He agreed that there had to have been a central banking system and he had searched for evidence and was unable to find any. But he said that there was defiantly a system but like today’s central banks everything is kept very secret.  So it is very likely that nothing will ever be found of the interworking of the ancient central banks.
Now we know that the Veda laws cover the taxes of the class system. This is important because this was before metal money was used.  And the same in Egypt, when metal money came into use in Egypt you got a discount on your taxes if you paid with metal.

The oldest laws were the Rig Veda which was told verbally. The laws came from god so the king himself could not rule outside or against the laws.  Ancient laws covered all money maters, inheritance, all real-estate transactions, marriage, divorce, adoptions, agriculture, water rights, medical payments, and taxes. Just about everything that we use today, except they seemed to me weak in the trading and banking areas.

No supreme court, but if the king ruled unjustifiable you could contest to the priests. If ruled in your favor the king would be liable to pay you 12 times what your fine was.

Twelve is interesting to me, because they used a base 6 system. And 12 is a number use a lot in the religions.

Tax systems varied over time and overtaxing was the main downfall of most empires except Egypt which was under taxing at times.

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Posted: 25 June 2013 10:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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MikeYohe - 24 June 2013 04:51 PM

My ideas have changed several times as to how this all came about. The nature of Gnostic thought is everyone has his own ideas and knowledge and some thought it was wrong to have preachers of the subject. A very large spectrum of teachings and methods.

We may be looking at a hundred different patterns of thought, now which ones do we connect to Jesus?

I think the teachings were getting more centralized in the university at Alexandria.

Would not surprise me if Jesus and Thomas got their training there.

Did Geza Vermaes use findings from the Nag Hammadi Library? That has been a gold mine of Gnostic information.

He mentioned how important the Nag Hammadi discovery was for understanding the actual Gnostic beliefs (as opposed to the arguments of their opponents).  But he didn’t cover them in detail.

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Posted: 25 June 2013 10:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Egypt
Part 2 of 3

Egypt went in cycles of being strong to weak. The Pharaohs had two sources of income, the head tax and income from rental of land. When the Pharaohs went to heaven then the rental of land income went to the temple that was taking care of the Pharaoh in his after life. That meant the new Pharaoh had less income.

Egypt was isolated by desert and water and had few wars. The new Pharaohs would reduce the sizes of the armies to make up for lost income. This left the Pharaohs open to be conquered. Conquers knew which temples to partner with and which temples to conquer so that they could become the next Pharaoh. This did not happen to often but enough to create a cycle in the history of management of Egypt.

The head tax was called the “First Born Tax”. Every first born male in Egypt belonged to the Pharaoh, every first born male of every animal including man. Every first born male animal at a certain age had to be taken to the temple and paid as a tax to the Pharaoh.

The young men were then trained in certain skills at the temple once trained the fathers could buy their sons back from the Pharaoh otherwise the sons would have to buy themselves back by working a number of years for the Pharaoh. 

The buy back program was known as redemption, still celebrated by the Jews in Israel today. The Israeli government even mints a redemption coin to be used in the ritual of buying their first born males back from the Pharaoh.   

The promise of the Tenth Plague (Ex 11.4ff):

Moses said, “Thus says the Lord: About midnight I will go out through Egypt.
Every firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne to the firstborn of the female slave who is behind the handmill, and all the firstborn of the livestock.
Then there will be a loud cry throughout the whole land of Egypt, such as has never been or will ever be again.
But not a dog shall growl at any of the Israelites—not at people, not at animals—so that you may know that the Lord makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel.
Then all these officials of yours shall come down to me, and bow low to me, saying, ‘Leave us, you and all the people who follow you.’ After that I will leave.” And in hot anger he left Pharaoh.

The questions this brings up;

Was Moses a Pharaoh?

If he wasn’t a Pharaoh then that statement would have united all of Egypt behind General Ramesses and Moses would have turned the population against him.

If he was the Pharaoh then all the first born belonged to Pharaoh and by the rights of a god he had the ability and right to kill them.

General Ramesses leading the revolt had control of a huge number of foreigners that lived in Egypt. The Canaan’s alone occupied four large cities in Egypt at this time. 
There must have been a lot of foreigners working in the temples and as household servants and intermarried with the native Egyptians. Plus Ramesses had the lower Egyptians to deal with.

Now Ramesses had him self ordained Pharaoh too. So Egypt had two gods fighting over leadership. Moses was telling Ramesses that he would even kill Ramesses heirs to the throne. That tells us that they had been at war for a while and Moses was sizing Ramesses up.

This tells us that Ramesses had taken over Memphis and was on the throne. And that Moses went to the only safe place available to him, Avaris.

This tells us that Moses is telling Ramesses that he wants all the foreign people to be able to go with him and that he wants to keep Israel for himself. Israel was the northwest wilderness of the Ancient Egyptian lands. And Israel was now highly valued because of the olive orchards.

This tells us that Moses not only wanted Israel but wanted Ramesses to recognize Israel as belonging to the Israelites, as a separate nation.

I was surprise how researching a tax system could bring up so much about religion relating to the bible.


Other information

I had read maybe ten books on religion by this time. So I could say I had a negative mind set about the Church, Christianity and the Bible. 

I had also done a little research on Marijuana and Beer going back to the ancient times.

And a few popular subjects like the pony express and highway systems in Turkey and the Hittites. 

An article about archeological findings in Egypt told of how a Pharaoh went on a raiding party into Africa and brought back 8,000 cows.

Now that got my attention and brought up a lot of questions. You don’t just get 8,000 cows. And say you did get 8,000 cows. How did he move the cows? That alone is a major task. 

Thinking about it, I knew that the Hittites had the Pony Express system in Turkey area. Could the Egyptians have had cowboys back then?
Yep, they did. And they had cowboy poems and songs just like in the Old West. The crossing of rivers was a major risk of cattle drives, again like in the Old West.

Point - The Pharaoh did not go out and steal cows, Pharaoh’s don’t steal. He went out and collected taxes for the use of land that was considered Ancient Egyptian Lands. Just like the Ancient Lands of Israel.


The Project

Material included the bible, study bible, timeline charts and bible history charts.
Started researching the bible with Genesis and the story of creation.

Now, research is different than chatting on a website or writing a letter and I have different levels of research. If large amounts of money are involved then the research has to be complete down to the last detail. And this is how I viewed my research of the bible.

Five month had gone by and I had gotten about twenty more books to help with the research because most of the books I had were worthless. I was on the third chapter of Genesis and saw no point in continuing. That’s right, five months and two pages into the bible.

I found the bible itself is no good for research. It translates a message or thoughts only.

And those thoughts do not necessarily follow the true translations of the bible.
Spent a lot of time calling and emailing colleges and institutions for translations, mainly in Israel.

One thing that surprised me was there were several gods in the first chapter alone. And the gods all had names in the older translations. Looking up these gods I found they had wives and children too. A couple gods are still worshiped today and others aren’t but you can still find and go to their ancient churches that are still standing.

I found claims on the internet that there are eleven separate gods in the bible that are under the name of god.

In projects you find an item that isn’t working or doesn’t fit. You stop and see what it will take to fix the problem. And if it can’t be fixed you have to abandon the project at that point otherwise the project is bound to fail. And I was at that point.

Next I went to the internet to learn what the thought was about this problem. If I could find it then you know a lot of other people had found it and maybe got it fixed.

First there were denials that it was really that way. And then there were the stories that they were really all the same god. Or that wherever information I got was wrong.

Then I had to find out if this was unique to the bible or is this common in religion?

Research showed that gods started out as animals or star in the sky, then evolved to part animals and part human, then evolved to all human. But they all had names and most had wives and children.

Next I reviewed the many Genesis stories that had been written, some older and some newer and none had a god without a name. And the newer ones were written from the older ones with changes.

The project was the Bible and God. The Bible was not researchable so the next step was to look into God. I wasn’t going to discard the bible completely. I would treat it like an auto junk yard, a lot of junk but there is still some really good part to be had.

Over the next four plus years I did a lot of research on ancient people and customs and read several books. 

How to explain what happened in less than one million words.

Should always work from a timetable.

In a thousand years no one has been able to make a timetable of the bible that everyone agrees upon.

DNA is helping a lot in this area.

Don’t trust or use any archeological data out of Israel by Israel.

Avaris and Alexandria are located in the center of the known world, most East to West trade pass through their ports. They are like a large mixing bowl of culture and ideas.

Take customs and religions from every direction and known country and put pieces of them in the mixing bowl. Then you bake it in the oven and you have a cake. Over time you end up baking a lot of cakes. Some were only liked by a few and others were liked by many and people took the cakes they liked back to their homeland countries to taste. Once the cake went back to the homeland the frosting of the homeland was added to the cake to make the cake more attractive to the people there.

The cakes the people liked the best seemed to have the pieces of India in them.

A story I read.
The Great Pharaoh of Egypt hears about this Great Chef at this cooking school in the area of Ancient Rome. He had the Great Chef brought to Egypt to teach his Royal Chefs how to make fruit pies. And that’s how fruit pies got to Egypt.

Point being, people liked certain things, but were always looking for new things too. 


You can tell someone that the gasoline burning car is not good for the environment and nothing will happen.

Give someone the choice of using a gasoline burner or an electric car and they will pick the electric car.

Point being, mainstream religion is not going to change unless you offer something better to replace it.

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Posted: 25 June 2013 11:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Today’s Facts about the Religion and God
Part 3 of 3

A bizarre thing happened while I was doing research. The Bone Box of Jesus was in the news. This antiquities dealer in Israel was arrested and charged with creating a forgery and marketing it. Israel had about 70 of its top experts declare it was a forgery. Israel wanted to put this man in jail and take his collection. A reporter out of Canada and some US news people got a hold of the story and got a couple of laboratories on this side of the ocean involved. 

It turns out that it was not a forgery. The investigative reporter had a university figure out the odds of the box not being Jesus’ bone box. Using very conservative figures it came out to if I remember right 300,000 to 1 that is was Jesus’ bone box.

Now we are talking the bones of GOD for the Christians and the second major prophet for Islam.

Bone boxes were not used by the Jews and were not Jewish. But there were a lot of bone boxes near the Temple Mount.

The Israeli government took the bones out of the boxes and gave them to the Jewish Rabbis. Why? I can think of a lot of reasons.

Now there are 5.5 billion Christians and Muslims in the world.

With all the TV preachers here in America I was expecting a big uproar.

Nothing, I mean nothing.

This had to be the biggest cover up and media control of modern times by the developed countries or religion is not about Jesus and God.

This came out of left field and I try to apply reason to the facts that the interest in God did not materialize. It had me wondering if God showed up and said that he was here for judgment if the people would even care.

I mean just a bad likeness of Jesus on a piece of toast brings world headlines. But when confronted with real facts, we got nothing.

Next I questioned my Christian friends. They all said it was a forgery. I ask them for some facts about the case and boxes and none of them knew anything. And I am talking about people who kiss the statue of baby Jesus before they go to bed.
They could tell me more about the next week’s weather than about the bone boxes.

It is not uncommon to think something represents an issue when in fact it does not.

Example would be like the Railroad claiming it was in the people transportation business. Then airplanes and busses came along and put them out of passenger business. That was because the railroad was not really in the transportation of people business otherwise it would have bought some busses and airplanes. It had all the resources. It could have invested and started manufacturing cars. It was in the freight business only.

Another example is the post office and phone company not getting into and controlling the internet.

So is the Religion business not really into the God business but into the controlling people’s faith business?

I did a project one time because of a new industry starting up. It was milking diaries that grew from 100 cows to 8,000 cows. They did not know that when they did that that they were really in the people management business as much or more than the dairy business. Once I showed them labor management techniques and got them into labor management their lives became better, other wise one labor strike would have put most of them out of business. They were all very smart people but they were to close to the standard accepted thinking of what a dairy was to see they had changed the main controls and issues of the business.

There is a real possibility that same thing has happen to the business of religion.

Now, ask a simple non-issue question to a Christian about the bone box and the Christians for no reason become defensive.  Why is that?  Deep down is there a cult mentality?

And it is not just the bone boxes. This professor from England working on a research project for an Israeli diamond merchant (Israeli government) goes out and follows leads given to him by the diamond merchant and fines the ARK, then writes a book about it. If I remember right he spent twelve years on the project.

What happen in the religious world when he published his findings?
Nothing.

A lot of the translations in the bible are wrong. Every few years they change a few of the texts to represent a better translation. Some of the bibles, not all of them this last time change the “virgin Mary” to “Mary the young woman”.

Now I’m no expert, but to me that seems like a major change. Again, nothing from the Christian world.

Some guy burns the bible and the Christian world gets upset. Change the whole meaning of the virgin birth and nothing. So is the bible today just an icon to the Christians?

Boy, talk about the Sheppard having his flock of followers.

I get the feeling sometimes that the bible is more of a crutch for Christian beliefs than a guide book.

Went to a church with a friend of mine a couple months ago. People spoke in tongues and they walked around babbling. Some sat and worked themselves into trances rocking back and forth and others stood in corners and babbled to the wall. Now in trying to understand what the reasoning was on this behavior I looked it up when I go home. This is my understand, god was speaking to the people thru them and only the righteous could understand them. But nobody was listening to them. And every fifth word by the pastor was “Jesus”.

In this Jim Jones religious mentality why are so few interested in the religious history or finding out about the past religious history.

Even on this website I entered a post about the search for the Port of Perunefer in Egypt.
No interest. Not that a lot of people would be but in finding out about Egypt or religion, but it is of major importance to have the correct facts about the heritage of mankind.

Yet American Idol on TV has more of the public’s major interest than religious items.

A decade ago there was a youth movement into religion. Ministers were filling stadiums and coliseums around the country. Country music singers were putting out religious recording.

Is the religion of the youth movement more of a fad than a fulfillment of the divine? 

Because the movement’s youth are not on the internet searching or working with the forums about religious facts or history.

Some do get disillusioned with the church and become atheists but are still in need of answers. Their problem is they do not know the questions they need the answers for, so they seem to be bouncing around on different subjects and ideas.

Religion

We have religion and god.  The bible is no source on understanding god. So now I am looking at religion.

So what does “religion” really mean today?

Encarta Dictionary
RELIGION

1. Beliefs and worship - people’s beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life.

2. System - an institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine

3. Personal beliefs or values - a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by

4. Obsession - an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is completely devoted to or obsessed by
• The danger is that you start to make fitness a religion.


So, the general accepted definition of Religion says nothing about it being any thing more than a belief or obsession in today’s society.

Next, what is the ‘Christian Religion’?

The Encarta Dictionary says the same thing, it is a belief, and they added a belief that Jesus Christ is the savior.

So, religion is a “belief”. And belief is “faith”. And faith is “religious beliefs”.

Point being, that you could have found the Ten Commandments and the burning bush but nobody cares. Find a stain on a dish towel that looks like what people think Jesus looked like and you really got some thing.

Conclusion about the Religion and God

Religion today is not about the god that the bible is based upon or the bible. It is about the belief that today’s faith is based on, in other words it’s all in the mind and seems to follow the movement of the masses.

Most likely the people at the time of Jesus were more like the people today, following a belief of mind more than looking for scientific facts and past history. Jesus offered a belief in a system that was more on the scientific edge of that time. Created a following that was hijacked by the Roman Church long after Jesus was gone.

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Posted: 26 June 2013 12:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Ufo-buff   Post #18
RE: Geza Vermaes

I read the Wikipedia data. Agree with some and disagree with some.
Pieces of the puzzle;
1.  Jesus at the City of Gods.
2.  Thomas going to India.
3.  Gospel of Thomas, Mary and Judas.
4.  Bone boxes.
5.  NT god vs. OT god

I would like to read “The Gospel of Jesus the Jew”.

I think there was more Canaan’s living in Egypt than Israel. Four cities of Jews alone. Many of the Jewish customs are really Egyptian customs. 
My bet is Jesus got educated at the University of Alexandria; his Jewish customs were a little different from Israel because he grew up in Egypt. So when he went to Jerusalem his thinking was different, but his knowledge was broader in religion. There was also a Jewish Temple in Egypt. I would also bet that the wealth and rich Jews were located in Egypt.

Why would Jesus want to go to Jerusalem?
Jesus could have been sent there by the Temple in Egypt to bring Jerusalem more in line with mainstream Jewish thinking. The reason I say this is because of the bone boxes, they were being used before Jesus. And they are found at the Temple Mount.

Another point is that we know that one of the Jewish sections was located across the lake at Alexandria and quite large. When the Romans destroyed Jerusalem we do not see any trouble out of the massive Jewish population in Egypt.

Another item that is off subject, I love reading the old letters. I have only read a few and I want to read more. They do not talk about religion but normal stuff. They give me an understanding that people got along most of the time and they talk about day to day problems.

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