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Definition of Atheist
Posted: 02 June 2013 06:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Can deductive reasoning play a role in faith?  What level of precision might be required for everyday living?

Is there value in having a sense of the sacred?

If the conceptualization of God evolves along with us, what might it look like down the road?  Would it be more or less theistic?

Is the term “Universe” all inclusive? Does the possibility of it being sentient remain open?  What is the prototype of the sense of self? The experience of “I am”?

What is the relationship of “instinct” to DNA?

(Perhaps we could just put aside the old school, Bible stuff, Greek Gods, etc. for a few minutes.)

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Posted: 02 June 2013 07:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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brmckay - 02 June 2013 06:59 AM

Can deductive reasoning play a role in faith?  What level of precision might be required for everyday living?

I don’t know. We know there are people who have faith, but are also very good at deductive reasoning.  The holeshot is the idea of agnosticism-“or one can never be 100% certain”. That is usually a good form of reasoning(the uncertainty part-not the theism part.)...I guess deductive even in the idea of religion.  That’s not my reasoning.  I am 100% certain there is no god. If you wanna call that faith-it doesn’t matter to me.
Everyday life requires very little precision in the conscious sense.

Is there value in having a sense of the sacred?

Yes. Or we wouldn’t have that concept to begin with.

If the conceptualization of God evolves along with us, what might it look like down the road?  Would it be more or less theistic?

I like to ponder this question too…

brmckay-Is the term “Universe” all inclusive? Does the possibility of it being sentient remain open?  What is the prototype of the sense of self? The experience of “I am”?

What is the relationship of “instinct” to DNA?

(Perhaps we could just put aside the old school, Bible stuff, Greek Gods, etc. for a few minutes.)

We’re getting far afield here…Lotta ground for one thread, let alone one post!

[ Edited: 02 June 2013 10:49 AM by VYAZMA ]
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Posted: 02 June 2013 12:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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VYAZMA - 02 June 2013 07:41 AM

We’re getting far afield here…Lotta ground for one thread, let alone one post!

Let’s see if there is consensus on this.  In my mind these are very related questions.

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Posted: 02 June 2013 01:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Reply to brmckay   Posted: 02 June 2013 06:59 AM


Thanks brmckay for bring up a couple of points.
I’m new at this site and this is my second day here.
But I have been pushing the envelope in a couple of areas.

One of those areas is the definition of atheist.
And man has needed god for at least as far back as we have found man.

So, is the need for God in our DNA.
That’s what I wanted to call this inquiry at the beginning, but chickened out.

And there are two answers to that question.
The first is – No Way, are you nuts?
The second is – Yes!

Why 2 answers?
The way different thinking sees what god is.

You already guess it, I bet. The Yes thinkers are Gnostic and the reason for god in the first place was to answer questions that man did not know the answers to.  So god was looked at as form of knowledge. And seeking that knowledge brought you closer to god.
And yes man has always sought knowledge, it’s in our DNA.

Just look at the Vedic, religion was there to answer questions and to teach. Religion was the laws, science, mathematics and more. It explained how the heavens worked and the reason for the universe. It had no direct power other than it knowledge. The king could not even rule against the Veda.  The Veda held the same level as the king but did not rule. It jobs was the history of people and all knowledge, and keeper of the laws.

On the tree diagram of the evolution of religion, the Vedic is the tree trunk that all religions we talk about evolved from. It took a couple of major disaster that almost wiped out the whole Harappan people in the Indus Valley that created the first Dark Ages.

[ Edited: 02 June 2013 01:50 PM by MikeYohe ]
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Posted: 02 June 2013 02:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Consensus? What am I thinking?

I’ll bring this back to the question of defining Atheism. (Save the koans for later.)

If the Universe were empirically known to be sentient, would that automatically require a Theistic relationship to it? Or, would it just mean adjustments within various disciplines; such as Physics and Psychology. Would science itself simply expand to inquire into the nature of that sentience?

Would Atheism still reasonably be about “no god”? Or, would it be more narrowly defined as the antidote for shoddy Theism?

Mike,

I was writing the above and thought to check other posts before submitting it.  Glad I did.  It seems to be along very similar lines as your comment.

I will have to get more familiar with the term “Gnosis” before I use it freely but am translating it into what I think of as “Authentic expression of reality”.

I have the utmost respect for the ancient Rishis.

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Posted: 02 June 2013 02:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Mike you are getting tangled up in semantics.  I suggest you go online and look for a used copy of an out-of-print book called “Language in Thought and Action” by S. I. Hawakawa. It should be quite reasonable.  It’s quite readable and enjoyable while helping you clarify your thinking about these definitions.

Occam

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Posted: 02 June 2013 04:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Mike, you may also look into David Bohm’s works.

A little excerpt may peak your curiosity.

One of the most impressive theories emerging out of scientific cosmology respecting these ancient truths was set forth by the late physicist, David Bohm in his book, Wholeness and the Implicate Order. Using the language of mathematics, Bohm set out to describe the transcendent reality and its graded energetic hierarchy in four basic states or orders of energy beginning with the physical world, which he called the Explicate Order.

‘The Explicate Order, weakest of all energy systems, resonates out of and is an expression of an infinitely more powerful order of energy called the Implicate order, the precursor of the Explicate, the dreamlike vision or the ideal presentation of that which is to become manifest as a physical object. The Implicate order implies within it all physical universes. However, it resonates from an energy field which is yet greater, the realm of pure potential. It is pure potential because nothing is implied within it; implications form in the implicate order and then express themselves in the explicate order. Bohm goes on to postulate a final state of infinite [zero point] energy which he calls the realm of insight intelligence. The creative process springs from this realm. Energy is generated there, gathers its pure potential, and implies within its eventual expression as the explicate order.’ Will Keepin, David Bohm, Noetic Science Journal

When Bohm’s resonant fields are arranged in a vibrational hierarchy they represent energy in successive states of manifestation from infinitely subtle to the gross physical reality.

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Posted: 03 June 2013 01:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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brmckay
Posted: 02 June 2013 02:04 PM

I was writing the above and thought to check other posts before submitting it.  Glad I did.  It seems to be along very similar lines as your comment.

I will have to get more familiar with the term “Gnosis” before I use it freely but am translating it into what I think of as “Authentic expression of reality”.

I have the utmost respect for the ancient Rishis.
***************************************************
I think you are there. Rishis is about knowledge. Not saying they were correct on all subjects, but they tried.

In Egypt you had two systems of religious training. one - the Roman thinking of gods. And two - the Egyptian Gnostic way of thinking about gods.

We have the same thing yet today, no different.
One - the people who follow belief and two the people that follow facts and knowledge.

At the University in Egypt, they had one side of the university teaching the Roman way and the other side teaching the Gnostic way.

Rome itself was not sure which way to go. They had the head master of the university in Egypt go to Rome four different times because they were thinking about changing the state religious system to Gnostic.

Remember, Rome was the largest city of a million people. With 40% of those being from other countries with many religions.

One would have to conclude that Gnostic was well understood and used for this to have happened.

I would like to leave you with a question. You brought up the Rishis. The Rishi’s soul is interpreted as imbibing wisdom directly from the universal source(Wikipedia). So God was not a man form, and when the Rishis spoke it was god speaking and god was part of everyone and everything.  Their god was an energy source fed by all things in the universe.  An offshoot of the Vedic ways.

Do you think they had atheists back then when they used this type of a system of religion?

Note, the posting is the meaning of atheist. I say the word atheist it is based upon the one’s meaning of god.
Everyone is telling me that I am off base. But I see religion in America is in disarray and people are looking for a change or no religion.
The fix of the problem is to change how people view god.
The old system worked until they combined god into government or ruling the people by merging the King and Priest into one.
Well today we are trying to separate the two.

[ Edited: 03 June 2013 01:55 AM by MikeYohe ]
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Posted: 03 June 2013 03:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Mike Yohe - 02 June 2013 05:21 AM

Mid atlantic

RE: Are the Stone age Gods more believable?

That would be pre-history.
The question I have is about the red ochre burials that show up everywhere on earth, some going back over 100,000 years.
Sure opens up a lot of possibilities.

What possibilities? Why are red ochre burials spiritually significant?

RE: Gnostic Jesus’ god.
The Gnostic god is 180 degrees from the God of Abraham.

The Gnostic God and the Abrahamic God are non-existent.

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Posted: 03 June 2013 03:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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brmckay - 02 June 2013 06:59 AM

  What level of precision might be required for everyday living?

The level of precision would be zero.

Is there value in having a sense of the sacred?

There can be completely subjective value.

[ Edited: 03 June 2013 03:10 AM by mid atlantic ]
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Posted: 03 June 2013 05:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Mid atlantic

Are the Stone age Gods more believable?

I got to pick a spot on the timeline to answer this question.
I will use the Rig Veda, most will agree going back to 12,000 years ago, and some say 32,000 years ago.
I would have to say Yes.

Reason of thought.
A.  In the history of mankind Christianity will be known as terrible religion.
B.  And as a religion of the uneducated and third world.
C.  You can go to a few spots of the world and the Vedic religion is still in operation in evolved forms.

Christianity is on it way out of America right now. It has been taken over by smaller groups that say they are Christian but are they really a force with the power of a major religion? Or are they there filling the vacuum left by the organized church? Are the kids today following the religious paths of the parents? 

Fifteen years ago there was a huge Christian movement in America. Now it is going the other way.


First, you have to establish whether the Gnostic Jesus existed, and if his knowledge of God was accurate.

Gnostic Jesus is found in the Quran and in the bible as well the Nag Hammadi Scrolls.
Examples from the bible.

Paul’s Jesus; “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Gnostic Jesus; “I am the knowledge of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk not knowing, but will have the knowledge of life.”

Paul’s Jesus; Those who are enlightened will understand what I’m saying.” Simon Peter asked him, “When you have departed from us, who will give us Light?”
Find the light inside, and share this light with the world;

Gnostic Jesus; Those who learn knowledge will understand what I’m saying.” Simon Peter asked him, “When you have departed from us, who will give us knowledge?”
Find the knowledge inside, and share this knowledge with the world;

Just a couple quick examples. You have to finish the translation into Gnostic form.

I have had arguments with my Christian friends about this and they insist that it really means a ray of light.

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Posted: 03 June 2013 05:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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I reject god(s) or anything supernatural. Does that qualify as atheist?

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Posted: 03 June 2013 05:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Mid atlantic

What possibilities? Why are red ochre burials spiritually significant?


A couple of things, they covered a long period of time. Some say they go back as far as 100K years, one of the members on this forum said he found they went back 300K years. And they have been found on every continent except Antarctica. That would mean that man had the same religion system around the world for a long time. And many experts think the reason for the red ochre was after life.

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Posted: 03 June 2013 05:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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FinallyDecided
I reject god(s) or anything supernatural. Does that qualify as atheist?

Yes, if you reject because you do not believe in the supernatural.
I’m an atheist, but I still believe in Witches.
I was married to one for years.

Change of thought——as of June 5th.
I need to change my reply because of new data.
The way “Atheist” is used today you are in fact presupposing that “God” does exist, and that you are just a non-believer.

I need to change my answer.

No, if you say you are an “Atheist” you are still recognizing that “God” exist.

According to Dr. Terence Meaden, - Words like ‘non-theist’ and ‘atheist’, as used by theists, are often taken to imply a position of being against what believers assume to be the reality of a supreme god who is creator and ruler of the universe.

[ Edited: 05 June 2013 01:40 PM by MikeYohe ]
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Posted: 03 June 2013 05:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Mike Yohe - 03 June 2013 05:48 AM

FinallyDecided
I reject god(s) or anything supernatural. Does that qualify as atheist?

Yes, if you reject because you do not believe in the supernatural.
I’m an atheist, but I still believe in Witches.
I was married to one for years.

I believe things are as they are and it makes my life much easier. smile

Why live life thinking there is some entity watching me and keeping score on my life? So basically, I have no “faith” I would say.

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