12 of 23
12
Definition of Atheist
Posted: 02 July 2013 03:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 166 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
MikeYohe - 02 July 2013 07:28 AM

And by saying “An atheist is one who LACKS a belief in any god or gods”.

You have just admitted that there is a god or gods. You just lack belief in the gods.

Tell me EOC is that what you really believe that there are gods, and you just lacking in your belief?

That what 90% of the world says you are saying.


What’s your position on all gods but your own?  Do you believe they exist or not?

Lois

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 July 2013 05:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 167 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  570
Joined  2013-06-01

Lois,
You always have such good questions.

MY POSITION ON GODS

Since the beginning of time, before pottery and written word man has need gods.

Man has created thousands of gods over time.

History shows us that knowledge is power. It is the nature of man to find answers to all questions.

Man created gods that was supposed to know all answers of man’s unanswered questions.
As man finds answers to the questions, god is not needed as much.

Some may just need god to judge the questions of right and wrong.

With the internet, basic knowledge has expanded and god is needed a lot less.

Common sense tells us this need to know is a feature of all mankind.

Starting in the oldest religions of Ur with India thought is the Gnostic Concept that God is KNOWLEDGE and all people make up god. That everyone is part of god and you are to seek knowledge. Under that concept the deity of god is not needed. A major break through in religious thought.

MY ANSWER ABOUT DO I BELIEVE GOD EXISTS?
No, I do not believe that the supposed deity that Christians purport to be the creator and ruler of the universe does exist.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 July 2013 06:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 168 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  570
Joined  2013-06-01

Occam,
Post #163

Of course I understand what EOC thoughts are. As I quoted in Post #87 I agree 200% with him and fully understand. But that’s not the problem.

But, this is not about me or my thoughts. I wish everybody would leave me out of the problem. I am not the problem.

In Post #50 I stated that the CIA says atheists are 2% of the world’s population.

I know how you, I and the rest of the people on this forum think and agree what the meaning is and how we see ourselves. 

The problem is how does the rest of the world see us and our views?

Looking at websites and other forums I noticed there was a problem and it seemed to me to center around the use of the word “Belief”.

So next I went to Atheist websites to see if they were seeing the same problem.

Yes they were and some even had their own definitions of “Atheist”.

On the website Nexushttp://www.atheistnexus.org/ Dr. Terence Meaden pointed out that it was not the use of the word “Belief” at all. It was the use of the word “God”.

Dr. Meaden says that by using the word “god” one is presupposing that “God” does exist.

It works like this. I do not believe in “Quytgxz”.  To me there are no such things. But if the persons that I am stating this to does believe in “Quytgxz” then they will take the statement to mean that I think Quytgxz do exist, I just do not have a belief in them.

Now take EOC’s statement “An atheist is one who LACKS a belief in any god or gods.”

Well, you see where the problem is now. Everyone that believes in god thinks EOC is just lacking in “belief” and that EOC does believe that god exits. Those that do not believe in “god” get’s EOC meaning the way it is written with no problem.

I don’t know what percentage of people believe in gods in the world, but the CIA says that atheists comprise of only 2% of the population. Therefore we need to make sure people can easily understand us.

And I should note that you will not find any of those problems on this website.
But I can see the problem at other websites.
The following is an atheist having trouble explaining what the word means.

Post #148
Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=10924496#post10924496

**** This guy 1peter315 says he is an atheist and is on this forum and he defending his atheists’ thinking by explaining what there are two forms of atheism.

For me, the reason why this is true is because of what atheism is. I define atheism as:
The belief that there are no gods. (Strong atheism)
A lack of belief in any gods. (Weak atheism)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 July 2013 07:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 169 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  570
Joined  2013-06-01

Write4U Post #164

Ya, I think that will work fine, it is in line with Dr. Meaden’s suggestion of Atheist – “A person who believes that the supposed deity that Christians purport to be the creator and ruler of the universe does not exist.”

I got to tell this one. Surfing the Christian websites to get an idea what topics and interests are hot issues of Christians today, I see them talking about atheists and their lack of belief. So, I thought I would make a comment. Had to register of course. Next thing I know, I am getting these emails from members of that Christian website from women overseas wanting to establish a relationship.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 July 2013 08:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 170 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  570
Joined  2013-06-01

Let me make another stab explaining the problem.

This problem of presupposing only comes up when there are strong opposite view points.

And Christians are presupposing the “God” exists.

Examples;

I do not believe that cars exist.      What would the presupposing belief be?
I do not believe the sun exists.
I do not believe Santa Claus exists.
I do not believe birds exist.
I do not believe the Tooth Fairy exists.

Do you see how the presupposing moves from “I” to the subject based upon common understanding?

Now use a common understanding.

I do not believe Dallas Cowboys will win.
I do not believe in Christmas.


Now use a not so common understanding.     

I do not believe in Aliens.
I do not believe in God.
I do not believe in Guns.

Point being, presupposing does not happen that often, but I think it has caused a communication problem with the different common understanding of “Atheist” that is easily fixed.

And if you don’t think it is a problem check out the dictionaries and other sources and see how the definitions vary. Then talk to a few believers.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 July 2013 03:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 171 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2011
Joined  2007-08-09
Lois - 29 June 2013 09:11 PM

Well, you’re wrong.  There is only one kind of atheism. This is the root of the word: a=without; theism=belief in god. 

In other words atheism is a lack of belief in god; an atheist is one who has no belief in god. When it comes to atheism, an atheist has no beliefs.  He or she does not believe there is no god.  An atheist simply lacks belief and rejects the concept of god because no objective evidence of a god has ever been presented by a believer in any of the thousands of gods anyone has proposed.  There is no weak or strong atheism, there is only atheism—a lack of belief in god. 

Until you can understand and accept the true meaning of atheism and atheist, without trying to redefine what those words mean, there is no reason for any rational person to debate you on any topic related to belief.  To attempt to do so would be like trying to discuss mathematics with someone who has no concept of what mathematics is or means. It would be a complete waste of time.

Lois

I like your definition, Lois, so I’d like to agree with you but I can’t. It’s not as simple as you say, or as perhaps both of us would like it to be.

There’s no there there. Atheism is a human construct, a position on an idea. It has multiple dimensions: intellectual, social and personal at least. Many movement atheists say that strong atheism is a strong positive assertion that “there is no god!” I think that’s a silly position to take, and a self-contradictory one if one of its main launching points is that there isn’t any proof that a god exists. Still, many atheists take that view, and we can hardly deny that they are without a belief in any god.

There are many ways of looking at and acting on atheism. Out of those come many definitions of it, sometimes explicit and often implicit. Some of them may not be sound. If you wanted to make the case that yours is the only defensible definition of atheism, that would be another matter and perhaps a vehicle for a very interesting discussion.

 Signature 

I cannot in good conscience support CFI under the current leadership. I am here in dissent and in support of a Humanism that honors and respects everyone.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 10 July 2013 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 172 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
TimB - 01 June 2013 07:19 PM
Mike Yohe - 01 June 2013 05:07 PM

...

What is faith? It is what ever you want to believe.
So where does that leave the meaning of “Atheist”?

I think that faith is more of a verb than a noun, i.e., deciding to believe something without relying on the presence or absence of any, natural and objective, supporting or countervailing evidence. Anyway the important part is that faith doesn’t rely on objective evidence.

Use theist as a verb in a coherent sentence.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 11 July 2013 06:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 173 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6012
Joined  2009-02-26

I believe it is a hard wired part of our brain that has the function of warning for possible danger. A shadow in the grass may be the wind or a tiger.

If we assume it is a tiger (not the wind) and take flight, nothing lost OTOH, if we assume it is the wind and it is a tiger, we’ll be lunch meat.
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/michael_shermer_the_pattern_behind_self_deception.html

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2013 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 174 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
MikeYohe - 02 July 2013 05:57 PM

Lois,
You always have such good questions.

MY POSITION ON GODS

Since the beginning of time, before pottery and written word man has need gods.

Man has created thousands of gods over time.

History shows us that knowledge is power. It is the nature of man to find answers to all questions.

Man created gods that was supposed to know all answers of man’s unanswered questions.
As man finds answers to the questions, god is not needed as much.

Some may just need god to judge the questions of right and wrong.

With the internet, basic knowledge has expanded and god is needed a lot less.

Common sense tells us this need to know is a feature of all mankind.

Starting in the oldest religions of Ur with India thought is the Gnostic Concept that God is KNOWLEDGE and all people make up god. That everyone is part of god and you are to seek knowledge. Under that concept the deity of god is not needed. A major break through in religious thought.

MY ANSWER ABOUT DO I BELIEVE GOD EXISTS?
No, I do not believe that the supposed deity that Christians purport to be the creator and ruler of the universe does exist.


Does that mean you think a god or gods might exist, just not the Christian one? wink

What is your crtieria for an existent god?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2013 11:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 175 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
MikeYohe - 02 July 2013 06:53 PM

Occam,
Post #163

Of course I understand what EOC thoughts are. As I quoted in Post #87 I agree 200% with him and fully understand. But that’s not the problem.

But, this is not about me or my thoughts. I wish everybody would leave me out of the problem. I am not the problem.

In Post #50 I stated that the CIA says atheists are 2% of the world’s population.

I know how you, I and the rest of the people on this forum think and agree what the meaning is and how we see ourselves. 

The problem is how does the rest of the world see us and our views?

Looking at websites and other forums I noticed there was a problem and it seemed to me to center around the use of the word “Belief”.

So next I went to Atheist websites to see if they were seeing the same problem.

Yes they were and some even had their own definitions of “Atheist”.

On the website Nexushttp://www.atheistnexus.org/ Dr. Terence Meaden pointed out that it was not the use of the word “Belief” at all. It was the use of the word “God”.

Dr. Meaden says that by using the word “god” one is presupposing that “God” does exist.

It works like this. I do not believe in “Quytgxz”.  To me there are no such things. But if the persons that I am stating this to does believe in “Quytgxz” then they will take the statement to mean that I think Quytgxz do exist, I just do not have a belief in them.

Now take EOC’s statement “An atheist is one who LACKS a belief in any god or gods.”

Well, you see where the problem is now. Everyone that believes in god thinks EOC is just lacking in “belief” and that EOC does believe that god exits. Those that do not believe in “god” get’s EOC meaning the way it is written with no problem.

I don’t know what percentage of people believe in gods in the world, but the CIA says that atheists comprise of only 2% of the population. Therefore we need to make sure people can easily understand us.

And I should note that you will not find any of those problems on this website.
But I can see the problem at other websites.
The following is an atheist having trouble explaining what the word means.

Post #148
Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=10924496#post10924496

**** This guy 1peter315 says he is an atheist and is on this forum and he defending his atheists’ thinking by explaining what there are two forms of atheism.

For me, the reason why this is true is because of what atheism is. I define atheism as:
The belief that there are no gods. (Strong atheism)
A lack of belief in any gods. (Weak atheism)

Either of those statements can be used to define an atheist.  They are not mutually exclusive.  They both denote a lack of belief.  It is not necessary in any discussion about atheism to create a division in the style of disbelief.  If a person has no belief that a god exists he doesn’t have to take it a further step and claim to believe that no god exists, ever existed or can possibly exist.  That is redundancy and has no effect on the definition of an atheist.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2013 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 176 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  570
Joined  2013-06-01

Lois,

For this topic we are just talking about the Christian God and the Gnostic God.
Now why does mankind even have these two gods?

Two reasons.
One, it is built into the makeup of mankind to know the answers to all questions.
Two, it is built into the makeup of mankind to want to live forever.


The Christian God, (whose name is not agreed upon) is a deity god. A made up god by the church and based upon a belief system. A god that you have a contract with and you obey his rule (as dictated by the head of the church who sits in for god) and you will get to live forever.

The Gnostic God is all the people make up this god. Jesus got into trouble when he was preaching because he said he was the son of god. In Gnostic we are all the sons of gods. Our spirits of everyone makes god.

God is knowledge, and you are to seek knowledge. Gnostic is easier to understand if you understand a little about the Vedic religions.

There is still a lot of missing peaces of the Gnostic religion. The data that has been dug out of the earth in the last 60 years has greatly increased man’s knowledge on Gnostic teachings. This is why it is just now reaching the attention of the public. Count the number of books about Gnostic 50 yrs ago compared to today. The Christian’s do not understand Gnostic and don’t even want to talk about it. Gnostic can be linked to Jesus, Mary, John, Paul, Thomas, Judas and many more.

The after life may be in the spirit or heaven; I am not quite sure how they dealt with that part of the religion. Or since it was being taught a the big religious college in Egypt if some Egyptian after life thought may got mixed in.

As man has found the answers to questions over time, god is needed less. The internet is a god killer for the new generations. Research is showing the more knowledgeable the county the less religious growth. 

If science can make man live forever then god is not needed anymore by mankind.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2013 01:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 177 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  570
Joined  2013-06-01

Either of those statements can be used to define an atheist.  They are not mutually exclusive.  They both denote a lack of belief.  It is not necessary in any discussion about atheism to create a division in the style of disbelief.  If a person has no belief that a god exists he doesn’t have to take it a further step and claim to believe that no god exists, ever existed or can possibly exist.  That is redundancy and has no effect on the definition of an atheist.


Lois,

All atheists know exactly what you are saying and mean I know I do.

But the problem is the Christians see it differently because they have in their hearts and soul that god exists.

And by you using the word God is also proof to the Christians that god exists and you and the rest of the atheists are just lost souls who have lost belief.

We have to move the center point of the Christian thinking from “Belief” to “God”.

All the Christians think you do not have any belief in God.

Dr. Terence Meaden says it would be better if “Atheist” was defined the following way instead of using the word “GOD”.

“The supposed deity that Christians purport to be the creator and ruler of the universe.”


Then the Christians will understand what you are saying.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2013 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 178 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
MikeYohe - 15 July 2013 01:00 PM

Either of those statements can be used to define an atheist.  They are not mutually exclusive.  They both denote a lack of belief.  It is not necessary in any discussion about atheism to create a division in the style of disbelief.  If a person has no belief that a god exists he doesn’t have to take it a further step and claim to believe that no god exists, ever existed or can possibly exist.  That is redundancy and has no effect on the definition of an atheist.


Lois,

All atheists know exactly what you are saying and mean I know I do.

But the problem is the Christians see it differently because they have in their hearts and soul that god exists.

And by you using the word God is also proof to the Christians that god exists and you and the rest of the atheists are just lost souls who have lost belief.

We have to move the center point of the Christian thinking from “Belief” to “God”.

All the Christians think you do not have any belief in God.

Dr. Terence Meaden says it would be better if “Atheist” was defined the following way instead of using the word “GOD”.

“The supposed deity that Christians purport to be the creator and ruler of the universe.”


Then the Christians will understand what you are saying.

Ok. i can accept that, though someone is bound to add other possible deities to the mix. For the record, I don’t believe any of them exists, and none has been shown to exist. I wish there were a good word for that.

Lois

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2013 04:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 179 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  570
Joined  2013-06-01

Lois,
Man is god, heaven is here on earth. Deities are man made just like Santa Claus.

To me, the best of all the gods were at the time of the Vedic and next would have been the Egyptian god RA. The Christian god would be at the very bottom of the list. I am still learning about the Gnostic god where god is knowledge and there is knowledge inside of all of us.

Point being, thru history the meaning of the word “GOD” has changed a lot. It went from magic to the written word. It was a cloud of light (knowledge) at one time. Most of history gods were families, husband, wife and children. 

But the common denominator is that god has always been about power and magic.

Is this power real?

Yes it is.

Just look at how this power has made changes around the world. Right now the “War on Drugs” is a Christian movement. It’s got this country into a mess.

Just like the atheists view the believers in god as having one way of thinking that is wrong.

Atheists have a complete misunderstanding of what “god” is to the Christians.

The deities are false. But the power is real. Atheists are not looking at the power. To see the power of god, turn on today’s news.

The dictionaries are mostly wrong in their definition of god. The reason I say this is because if the people believe in a deity as today’s god the way the bible says, they would be living a completely different lifestyle.

Everybody wants to be part of the power. Just look at these big TV church gatherings.

Try this,
The atheists say, “I don’t believe in God”.
The meaning to the Atheist is “I don’t believe in a deity”.
To the Christian they think you are saying “I don’t believe in the Power of God”

Face it, look at how the Christian’s live, they don’t believe in the deity either.

It’s all about the “Power”.

So, I will stop here with the question somewhat answered and ask you, do you believe that you can classify the power in these Christian movements as the “Power of God?”
If not then how would you classify the movements?
If yes, then god does exist.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 July 2013 06:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 180 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2602
Joined  2012-10-27
MikeYohe - 15 July 2013 04:55 PM

Lois,
Man is god, heaven is here on earth. Deities are man made just like Santa Claus.

To me, the best of all the gods were at the time of the Vedic and next would have been the Egyptian god RA. The Christian god would be at the very bottom of the list. I am still learning about the Gnostic god where god is knowledge and there is knowledge inside of all of us.

Point being, thru history the meaning of the word “GOD” has changed a lot. It went from magic to the written word. It was a cloud of light (knowledge) at one time. Most of history gods were families, husband, wife and children. 

But the common denominator is that god has always been about power and magic.

Is this power real?

Yes it is.

Just look at how this power has made changes around the world. Right now the “War on Drugs” is a Christian movement. It’s got this country into a mess.

Just like the atheists view the believers in god as having one way of thinking that is wrong.

Atheists have a complete misunderstanding of what “god” is to the Christians.

The deities are false. But the power is real. Atheists are not looking at the power. To see the power of god, turn on today’s news.

The dictionaries are mostly wrong in their definition of god. The reason I say this is because if the people believe in a deity as today’s god the way the bible says, they would be living a completely different lifestyle.

Everybody wants to be part of the power. Just look at these big TV church gatherings.

Try this,
The atheists say, “I don’t believe in God”.
The meaning to the Atheist is “I don’t believe in a deity”.
To the Christian they think you are saying “I don’t believe in the Power of God”

Face it, look at how the Christian’s live, they don’t believe in the deity either.

It’s all about the “Power”.

So, I will stop here with the question somewhat answered and ask you, do you believe that you can classify the power in these Christian movements as the “Power of God?”
If not then how would you classify the movements?
If yes, then god does exist.

It’s the power of human imagination, not god. 

Would you say that unicorns must exist as long as people say they don’t believe they exist!

Lois

Profile
 
 
   
12 of 23
12
 
‹‹ A Thitd Sex?      Excellent definition ››