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Definition of Atheist
Posted: 15 July 2013 07:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 181 ]
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God is human imagination.
Belief can be anything you want.
“IN GOD WE TRUST” is not imagination.
If unicorns could change the drinking laws or help elect the president, then I would say the unicorn has some power even if they don’t exist.

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Posted: 15 July 2013 08:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 182 ]
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Can you not see the contradictions in your statements?

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“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

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Posted: 15 July 2013 09:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 183 ]
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DarronS - 15 July 2013 08:45 PM

Can you not see the contradictions in your statements?

There is a name for this phenomena where thought can create a being, which takes on a life of its own.

These entities (demons) are rumored come by various names and exist for those who believe in them. Just like God being created by belief.

Interestingly, Wiccans do not believe in demons.

Wicca

Demons are not courted or worshipped in contemporary Wicca, although the existence of negative energies is acknowledged.

and
[quotePsychologist Wilhelm Wundt remarked that “among the activities attributed by myths all over the world to demons, the harmful predominate, so that in popular belief bad demons are clearly older than good ones.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon

[ Edited: 15 July 2013 09:36 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 15 July 2013 09:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 184 ]
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Darron,

Yes I can see the contradictions.

The Q was, “Does God Exist”.

What I am trying to explain is that something does not have to exist to have power.

Example: Santa Claus has power over children.
Santa Claus does not exist, but Santa Claus does exist when it comes to having power.

The same with god, god does not exist, but the power of god does exist.

We all agree that god does not exist as a deity. And I think a lot of Christians feel the same. But the Power of god does exist, therefore when we say we do not believe in god.

We are also saying we do not believe in the Power of God.  Which is wrong, because the power of god is quite strong and is in many areas and subjects and does exist.

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Posted: 15 July 2013 09:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 185 ]
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Post #183

Write4U,

Are you saying god is a demon?

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Posted: 15 July 2013 10:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 186 ]
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MikeYohe - 15 July 2013 09:59 PM

Post #183

Write4U,

Are you saying god is a demon?

A spiritual being. Gods, devils, angels, demons, sprites all belong to the same class. You can’t pick only the good ones, because some people believe in one more than the other.

They are all man made conceptualizations. You believe in one, you concede the existence of all the others.  That is the problem with theism, there is no definition of a supreme God who controls all the demons if only we believe in him. Then, at what point does a god becomes a demon (Devil)? 
At least mythology is consistent. Lots of gods, squabbling, scheming, warring, their lives depending on the worship and emotions of humans. That is the story of Perseus, no? The god Zeus is angry because man has lost respect for the gods and must be punished. His brother, the god Hades offers to help by unleashing the Kraken, which Perseus then kills and saves mankind.

Great drama, but all too human for my taste.

[ Edited: 16 July 2013 05:28 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 16 July 2013 07:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 187 ]
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MikeYohe - 15 July 2013 09:36 PM

Darron,

Yes I can see the contradictions.

The Q was, “Does God Exist”.

What I am trying to explain is that something does not have to exist to have power.

Example: Santa Claus has power over children.
Santa Claus does not exist, but Santa Claus does exist when it comes to having power.

The same with god, god does not exist, but the power of god does exist.

We all agree that god does not exist as a deity. And I think a lot of Christians feel the same. But the Power of god does exist, therefore when we say we do not believe in god.

We are also saying we do not believe in the Power of God.  Which is wrong, because the power of god is quite strong and is in many areas and subjects and does exist.

You are creating an essence by using the definition of “power” to mean something that can cause significant change, but then not recognizing the nature of this ‘something’ appropriately. You conclude that God has power because the changes in society are affected by the belief; but you transferred this belief into a real physical existence of what people interpret the belief to imply. Santa Claus does not have power over children; the belief in Santa Claus has the power. It is not rational to assume that though a child may claim to have a belief in regards to Santa, that the belief logically equates to the existence of Santa.

[ Edited: 16 July 2013 07:04 AM by Scott Mayers ]
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Posted: 16 July 2013 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 188 ]
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Hi Scott,

What I am trying to do here is make the atheist think like a Christian for a minute.

And yes you are right; Santa Claus is the spokesman for the “Belief in Christmas”. But the real belief is not in Santa Claus but the “power” of the expectations of happiness, and the joy of making others happy. 

I am using Santa Claus because most people are familiar with asking kids, “Do you believe in Santa Claus.” Call it Santa Claus or Christmas, it affects every town in America. And Santa Claus is its representative of Christmas, sort of the pattern of the Christian religion. 

Every town in America has Churches and that show the power of god.

The atheist says, “I do not believe in god”.

Yet, it is wrong for atheists to ignore the “power of god”.

I came to this conclusion by talking to many Christians. Not all but many didn’t think there was a god sitting on a throne, or going to come to earth and sit down and judge everyone.

So I had to ask myself, why in the hell are they in church and why do they prey before every meal to this god that they have a lot doubts even exists. And then it became obvious that there existed some sort of power the people believed in that was outside of the deity of god. The more Christian get together the stronger the power. If the gathering is in a church the power is stronger yet. And many preachers will talk about the “Power of God”. So, they must see the same thing too.

So does this power of god exist?

Yes it does.

There for it is wrong for an atheist to say “I do not believe in god” and expect the Christians to understand the statement in the way it was meant to be understood.

Every atheist understands “god” to mean “deity”.
Many Christian understands “god” as the “Power of God”.

With the atheists being only 2% of the population it is a problem. I think the problem will go away when the atheists are up to say 30% of the population. But that may take years.

Write4U in post #183 explained this power really good with the entities of demons.

Mike

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Posted: 16 July 2013 12:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 189 ]
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MikeYohe - 16 July 2013 08:27 AM

Hi Scott,

What I am trying to do here is make the atheist think like a Christian for a minute.

And yes you are right; Santa Claus is the spokesman for the “Belief in Christmas”. But the real belief is not in Santa Claus but the “power” of the expectations of happiness, and the joy of making others happy. 

I am using Santa Claus because most people are familiar with asking kids, “Do you believe in Santa Claus.” Call it Santa Claus or Christmas, it affects every town in America. And Santa Claus is its representative of Christmas, sort of the pattern of the Christian religion. 

Every town in America has Churches and that show the power of god.

The atheist says, “I do not believe in god”.

Yet, it is wrong for atheists to ignore the “power of god”.

I came to this conclusion by talking to many Christians. Not all but many didn’t think there was a god sitting on a throne, or going to come to earth and sit down and judge everyone.

So I had to ask myself, why in the hell are they in church and why do they prey before every meal to this god that they have a lot doubts even exists. And then it became obvious that there existed some sort of power the people believed in that was outside of the deity of god. The more Christian get together the stronger the power. If the gathering is in a church the power is stronger yet. And many preachers will talk about the “Power of God”. So, they must see the same thing too.

So does this power of god exist?

Yes it does.

There for it is wrong for an atheist to say “I do not believe in god” and expect the Christians to understand the statement in the way it was meant to be understood.

Every atheist understands “god” to mean “deity”.
Many Christian understands “god” as the “Power of God”.

With the atheists being only 2% of the population it is a problem. I think the problem will go away when the atheists are up to say 30% of the population. But that may take years.

Write4U in post #183 explained this power really good with the entities of demons.

Mike

It took more than a thousand years for more than a few people (including the Catholic Church) to give up a flat earth and geocentrism. There are still a substantial number of holdouts. Rational understanding is a very slow process. The only demons that exist are belief in myths and deliberate blockheaded ignorance.

Lois

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Posted: 16 July 2013 01:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 190 ]
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MikeYohe,
Yet, it is wrong for atheists to ignore the “power of god”.

Truer words were never spoken. History is filled with examples of “the power of god”. 

But it is always men assuming this power and claiming to act in the name and the glory of god. Of course now they use boys, who just act on what their immam tells them.  At what point does this god become a demon? A demonic act committed by a human under the “power of god” transforms that god into a demon.

It is useless to speak of power of god when this power is always exercised by men. Give me evidence that god smites down a jihadist before he commits an act of terror by suicide, which itself is an expression of the “power of god”, and I’ll believe.

Now I just fear “the power of God” as expressed by humans.

[ Edited: 16 July 2013 01:25 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 17 July 2013 02:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 191 ]
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MikeYohe - 16 July 2013 08:27 AM

Hi Scott,

What I am trying to do here is make the atheist think like a Christian for a minute.

...

So does this power of god exist?

Yes it does.

There for it is wrong for an atheist to say “I do not believe in god” and expect the Christians to understand the statement in the way it was meant to be understood.

Every atheist understands “god” to mean “deity”.
Many Christian understands “god” as the “Power of God”.

...
Mike

I don’t know what kind of distinction you are trying to make. You are wrong to assume that most believers do not actually believe in an actual mystical power that acts in their lives. Even the most liberal believers tend to believe that there exists something real to it—not just some practical application of positive thinking to get through life. Yes, most people are ‘lazy’ believers or secular in their attitudes. But they still believe these powers as real manifestations of existence from beyond. They pretend a reality is true and then look away when they are asked to justify it.

I just went to a group meetup which involved a presenter who wanted to discuss “faith”, how it served him in his life, and how it is certain to have the same power in others. The reality for these people is that they credit faith as the significant power only after the fact (ad hoc) of something evidentially prevalent in their lives, ignore all the failures of it, especially in reference to others who don’t use it, and declare that anyone has this magnificent power to achieve any goal. It’s a con. Even if they themselves believe it. To me, it insults the realities of most people to fail in life in one aspect or another. It’s delusional and can be very dangerous. I pointed out to the group that if faith is a virtuous power to assure your desires, then no one should ever claim to have dismay in a stalker who continues to have “faith” that their persistence in pursuit of a loved one is well adjusted.

The power isn’t real. For those believers in any religion, the delusion works best when things have gone well for them and they turn back and ask themselves why they are doing so good when others aren’t. And because you are certain to find others who are always apparently worse off, you will always have the evidence to declare some power to who or why you are. And then you deem others as faulty by their lack of exercise of this supposed power rather than have to look at themselves and realize that they were actually a contributing part of the reason for others failures.

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Posted: 17 July 2013 07:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 192 ]
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Scott,
I know what you mean. I am on the Board of Directors of a habilitation nonprofit business that helps people with room and board who otherwise would be living on the street. You would think that we were a church. We work with several State Departments.

So much dam praying. It is a twelve step process and AA, there is praying in just about every step. It is almost like we are trying to turn these people’s lives around using the “Power of God”. I don’t fight it, because it is a proven method. But I feel that we are also teaching people how to con other people using god. Now when they panhandle you, you will be blessed.


Back up data. These numbers are weak, but it is the only data I could find.

Christians that believe in “The Power of God”.

The majority of Americans (73–76%) identify themselves as Christians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States


The results of a 2009 Pew Survey: 31 percent of U.S. adults believe “humans and other living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time.”
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=faith-and-foolishness


The math is looking like 75% of Americans are Christians and that 59% of those Christians do not believe in Creation.
So how can they be Christians?
I think they believe in “The Power of God”.

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Posted: 17 July 2013 08:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 193 ]
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MikeYohe - 17 July 2013 07:05 AM

Scott,
I know what you mean. I am on the Board of Directors of a habilitation nonprofit business that helps people with room and board who otherwise would be living on the street. You would think that we were a church. We work with several State Departments.

So much dam praying. It is a twelve step process and AA, there is praying in just about every step. ...

Just tell them that AA is actually a Muslim conspiracy: Allah = Al(coholics)Ah(nonymous).  oh oh
But then I guess you’d have to prepare for a big party as everyone comes off the wagon!

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Posted: 17 July 2013 09:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 194 ]
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MikeYohe;
I think atheists do understand what you’re saying, they just don’t play the semantic games like you are. The value in what you’re doing is saying that the concept of “god” exists, obviously, but that says nothing about the existence of a real being called “God”. Any particular argument about god (creation, prayer, hell, Jesus) is a way to show that nothing real justifies a conclusion that God is real. The problem is not that atheists try to point this out, the problem is very few people examine their own beliefs.

Children examine their beliefs and we let them do it for Santa Claus. If we don’t, they’ll be choosing Santa or acceptance pretty quick. Enough people don’t let them do it for God that the acceptance/belief tradeoff becomes a difficult choice.

The question of you is, if you don’t think “god is not real” is the right place to start, then where should we? Are you suggesting I tell my evangelical cousin that a bunch of people made up the “power of God” and they are using it to manipulate you? Besides being ineffective, it would be mean. Until someone has examined many aspects of their beliefs, they aren’t ready to examine something like “how did we come to create this myth in the first place?”

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Posted: 17 July 2013 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 195 ]
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Lausten,
I don’t have time for semantic games.
These are my thoughts, hope they help.

Please go to various websites and forums talking about Atheism and then read all the different definitions of the word Atheist.

The question is why is there such a spread of ideas on something that is just basic communication?

Communication is nothing more than thoughts expressed in words.

What we are doing is taking a look at these thoughts. 


“the problem is very few people examine their own beliefs.”

So true and I could not agree more.

Any particular argument about god (creation, prayer, hell, Jesus) is a way to show that nothing real justifies a conclusion that God is real. The problem is not that atheists try to point this out,…

Again this is true, but I also felt that Atheists were missing the “Power of God” and just focusing on the Deity.

Are you suggesting I tell my evangelical cousin that a bunch of people made up the “power of God” and they are using it to manipulate you?

How much time to you have to explain god to your cousin? Because the best understandings people can have is the whole history of a subject. It is best if they are able to see and understand the evolving of the subject and see that all gods are evolved from older gods.
You could start in India and then evolve to Ur and Egypt until you come to today’s god.
Or your cousin may be the type of person that needs the “Power of God” or “God the Deity”. If so then it may be best to let your cousin live life with god.
I have several good friends that are preachers, including my son, They have no problem with what I believe and I have no problem with what they believe.


“how did we come to create this myth in the first place?”

History has shown that it is part of the makeup of mankind to know the answers to all questions. Gods were created as the answer to the questions that mankind did not have the answers to.
History has shown us that mankind has needed gods before they need pottery.

There was a book at Alexandrian Library in Egypt in the time before Jesus titled “The history of Ancient Religions”. Historians know the book existed but it has never been found. Historians think it would help explain the evolving of religion in more detail if we had this book today.

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