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Definition of Atheist
Posted: 23 July 2013 12:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 211 ]
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HELP!

This posting is at a point where it needs a summarization by a skilled wordsmith, which I am not. I welcome all help and team work.

My method is coffee shop talk, or to tell it in a story. Not the deep scientific thought and communication method most form members use. 

Started this posting because I saw trouble with the term “Atheist” and how the communication of thoughts between the websites has been having trouble and going around in circles and getting stuck in the mud over the meaning.

The goal or mission statement of the post would be for CFI to come to a consensus that we think is the proper wording that will translate the thought of the Atheist’s to the Christians and be able to post on Wikipedia for all to use. Note, I have not checked yet to see if CFI would want to post on Wikipedia, if not we can still post ourselves. 

These are not my ideas; I am learning myself as this posting has grown.

Step One. Explain the problem.
This took from June 1st to July 15th.

Step Two started on July 15th. Without going though step one, step two would have created total confusion. As step one explained that Atheists do not believe in god. Step two has to explain that Atheists do believe in god (the POWER OF GOD). As step one covered the “Belief” part of Atheist belief, step two will cover the “God” part of Atheist belief.

To help clear things up; today over half the Christians do not believe in “Creation”. They have move god from the Deity to Jesus by claiming they are one and the same. By not believing in “Creation” makes the majority of Christians thinking along some of Atheist lines of thought.

On the Atheist side of things, they are seeing that when the Atheist takes a hard look at religion, they are seeing that god exists in a form of “POWER” and not as a “DEITY” with most Christians today. And that “POWER” does exist, therefore the Atheist statement that “Atheists do not believe in God” or “That God does not exists” is wrong.

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Posted: 23 July 2013 08:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 212 ]
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Even if I wanted to do that, which I don’t, or CFI were doing it, which they’re not, I wouldn’t want to do it with you Mike.

You have thrown out some ideas and only just barely taken any feedback about them. I see very little indication of any kind of active listening or engagement in a creative process from you.

As evidence, why not refer to the existing “Atheism” wikipedia page? The way wikipedia works is someone throws up a page, then others edit it and comment on it. There are discussion pages there for that purpose. Are you not happy with that? Do you want to discuss that discussion? I’d be okay with that, but not with starting a whole new discussion, moderated by you.

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Posted: 23 July 2013 09:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 213 ]
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Lausten,
RE: Post 212

You have a nice website. I can see you have done a lot of work on your website, great job.

I get it that you do not want to work with me personally. Sorry to hear that.

I see very little indication of any kind of active listening or engagement in a creative process from you.

I am learning as I go here. I find the best information or ideas seem to develop when several people are involved in the discussions.

As evidence, why not refer to the existing “Atheism” wikipedia page?


RE: Post 9.  Dictionary vs. Wikipedia meaning.

I think as far as Wikipedia, it will need more than a definition. I think a statement of facts will also be needed.

The way wikipedia works is someone throws up a page, then others edit it and comment on it.

Wikipedia posting are several levels above my skills. And I think my thoughts are correct. By posting them here I know they will be tested by people of reason. If I am wrong, then I have learned. I have no issues with being wrong. I always say if you’re not making mistakes, then you’re probably not doing anything. There was only one perfect man, and you know what happened to him. Besides this post is not just about me, I welcome all thought on the subject and enjoy teamwork.

The way wikipedia works is someone throws up a page, then others edit it and comment on it. There are discussion pages there for that purpose. Are you not happy with that? Do you want to discuss that discussion? I’d be okay with that, but not with starting a whole new discussion, moderated by you.

If this posting gets to step four, then we can look at Wikipedia and go thought the steps you are talking about. But, I am not the person who should post on Wikipedia.

We should all try and have fun with this post and enjoy what we are doing.

And thank you Lausten for your postings, if we disagree about some items, that’s OK.

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Posted: 23 July 2013 10:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 214 ]
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Mike,

I can’t invest the time in wading through any more threads right now. So, will say that I only followed this for a while back when you started it.  I have been reading quite a lot elsewhere on CFI though, and am getting familiar with a diversity of atheist viewpoints.

Did you explain Gnosis?

What types of debate did that generate?

Did people ever get past the “straw man” version of God?  I.E. Are they still using terms like “a god”, “gods”, “supernatural”, “metaphysics”, “spirit” to explain what Atheism is against?

Is the general trend against thinking in terms of relationship to the Entirety? And related to this, is there any sign of openness to the possibility that “Self awareness” is a universal constant?

I have returned from the land of the “Abrahamic folks”.  There, as here, the work was about improving the quality of the conceptualization of God.  One that doesn’t have to be merely “believed in” or “not believed in” as the case may be.

Once people step out of theological adolescence into the realm of wisdom.  The process of awakening picks up a head of steam.  The polarization begins to seem foolish.  No matter what words are used to describe the coherence of it all.

There are some voices here that echo this.  Others voices seem stubbornly attached to the politics.  And of course the letterhead on all the stationary has already been printed.

Perhaps the current Wikipedia article should stand as it is.  Maybe in time it will seem like a quaint artifact,  along with articles on the elaborate mythologies that percolated out of Flatland.  Before we Knew!

[ Edited: 23 July 2013 10:15 AM by brmckay ]
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Posted: 23 July 2013 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 215 ]
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Brmckay,
In Post 210 outline of the postings.

The Gnosis was being used like Santa Claus to get a point made.

The term “Belief” was hard to explain. I tried Dr. Terence Meaden’s “Presupposing” idea, but that had its own problems of understanding.

I see now that I should have first use the term “God” then merged in the term “Belief”. People have a better understanding of the meaning of “God” than of “Belief”.

Did people ever get past the “straw man” version of God?  I.E. Are they still using terms like “a god”, “gods”, “supernatural”, “metaphysics”, “spirit” to explain what Atheism is against?

We have to stay away from the many meaning of “God” and concentrate on the popular Christian thinking of “God”. The Atheist know the Atheist thinking but was mostly unaware of the Christian thinking but once in discussion Atheists are able to easily see the difference between the “Deity” and the “Power of God”.  Even the churches today push the Son of God over God the Creator.

Is the general trend against thinking in terms of relationship to the Entirety? And related to this, is there any sign of openness to the possibility that “Self awareness” is a universal constant?

There is always the relationship to the Deity being confirmed by the Christians, even though its not the true belief of most Christians. There seems to be enough facts that show the real belief system is in the “Power of God” and a belief that the Pope is the acting god and voice of god on earth is going away.

RE: Self awareness. I think that many believers see the “Power of God” and will not take the step as an Atheist because they think that the “Power of God” can not be believed by Atheists.

Perhaps the current Wikipedia article should stand as it is.

Let’s finish this posting on the Definition of Atheist and see if it will change your mind.

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Posted: 23 July 2013 01:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 216 ]
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Working Draft of Definition of Atheist

Atheist recognizes Christian stance of God is a twofold point of view divided between the “Deity” and the “Power of God”.

Atheist recognizes that in the present day more Christians believe in evolution than creation. 

Atheist viewpoint is one that believes Christian’s belief has dualistic conceptualizations of the God.

On the “Deity of God” Atheists do not believe that the supposed deity that Christians purport to be the creator and ruler of the universe does exist.

On the “Power of God” Atheists believe there is a phenomena that exists where Christian thought can create a supposed being of Power derived from the gospels by faith and belief that is perceived to have the ability to create and to destroy, to govern and control the destinies of nations and individuals, to accomplish all his purposes, and to do his will throughout the physical and spiritual universe.

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Posted: 23 July 2013 04:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 217 ]
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Why do we even have to look at the Definition of Atheist?

Back in 1968 the U.S. Supreme Court repealed all creationist laws. Then in 1991 the intelligent design movement started. And in 2007 the Pope agreed that the scientific proof was in favor of evolution.

The Christian belief is now divided between God’s Creation and God’s Evolution.

The definition of the Atheists needs to also reflect these new changes.

Working Draft of Definition of Atheist

Atheist recognizes Christian stance of God is a twofold point of view divided between the “Deity” and the “Power of God”.

Atheist viewpoint is one that believes Christian’s beliefs today has dualistic conceptualizations of the God.

Atheist recognizes that in the present day many Christians believe in evolution.

Creation
On the “Deity of God” Atheists do not believe that the supposed deity that Christians purport to be the creator and ruler of the universe does exist.

Evolution
On the “Power of God” Atheists believe there is a phenomena that exists where Christian thought can create a supposed being of Power derived from the gospels by faith and belief that is perceived to have the ability to create and to destroy, to govern and control the destinies of nations and individuals, to accomplish all his purposes, and to do his will throughout the physical and spiritual universe.

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Posted: 25 July 2013 03:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 218 ]
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Why do we even have to look at the Definition of Atheist?

Back in 1968 the U.S. Supreme Court repealed all creationist laws. Then in 1991 the intelligent design movement started. And in 2007 the Pope agreed that the scientific proof was in favor of evolution.

The Christian belief is now divided between God’s Creation and God’s Evolution.

The definition of the Atheists needs to also reflect these new changes.

Working Draft of Definition of Atheist

Atheist recognizes Christian stance of God is a twofold point of view divided between the “Deity” and the “Power of God”.

Atheist viewpoint is one that believes Christian’s beliefs today has dualistic conceptualizations of the God.

Atheist recognizes that in the present day many Christians believe in God’s Evolution or
God’s Creation
.

Creation
On the “Deity of God” Atheists do not believe that the supposed deity that Christians purport to be the creator and ruler of the universe does exist.

Evolution
On the “Power of God” Atheists believe there is a phenomena that exists where Christian thought can create a supposed being of Power derived from the gospels by faith and belief that is perceived to have the ability to create and to destroy, to govern and control the destinies of nations and individuals, to accomplish all his purposes, and to do his will throughout the physical and spiritual universe.

[ Edited: 25 July 2013 03:59 PM by MikeYohe ]
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Posted: 26 July 2013 12:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 219 ]
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Hi Mike,

I read through the first couple of pages, but not all posts so forgive me if I’m behind in my reply.

It is my understanding that an atheist is one who has seen the evidence and made the choice to believe that no God or gods exist.  It is most definitely a belief position rather than a lack of belief since there is no proof either way for the existence of God.

An agnostic is one who doesn’t know if God or gods exist.

Gnostics puts the value on knowledge, but that knowledge may be personal experience or revealed knowledge and not necessarily something proven scientifically or deduced through study and reason.  The traditional Christian view values love above knowledge. 

Since the teaching of Hinduism and similar beliefs are based on the understanding that all of creation is God and is made from God, they look within to find knowledge and enlightenment since they are a part of God.  The Christian view is that the Creator God is separate and distinct form his creation and so the Christian must look outside himself to God to find knowledge.  This knowledge is revealed to him by God and does not come from within a man.

They are all faith positions.

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Posted: 26 July 2013 02:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 220 ]
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Hello Lily,
This should be a simple task.
The Atheist must be able to explain to the Christians what the view points of an theist are so that they can commutate and understand each other.

Now what you said is the exact problem the post is trying to address.

It is my understanding that an atheist is one who has seen the evidence and made the choice to believe that no God or gods exist.

See what you stated is exactly what I have been trying to explain.

You have added the word “believe”, in other words you think it is an Atheist’s belief.  And that is pretty much the standard thought in the world today.

And that is using “GOD” as the creator. The Atheist and Christian fully understand each other.

Yet we know that half the Christians today believe in “Evolution” and not “Creation”.
So they do not see God as the creator. But they are not what we would call Atheists.

Have you seen the movie “She’s the One” staring Jennifer Aniston. In the movie the dad is telling his boys how to act in his house and to honor God in his house. The son replies that the dad does not even believe in God. The dad replied that; just because he doesn’t believe in God, does not mean that he is still not a good Catholic.

That statement can describe so many people’s views on religion today.

Now my thoughts are that the Christian that believes in “Evolution” does not believe in God as the Creator, but he stills believes in God, prays to God and honors God in a Jesus way. That is when the Christian talks about God, most of the time he is talking about the Son of God, Jesus. A lot of my friends are that way.

To the Atheist, it is like saying; I’m a little bit pregnant, but not all the way pregnant.

The Atheist sees all these buildings, laws, governments, people, books, beliefs, customs, songs, wars, art and other items that pay tribute to God. So the Atheist has to ask himself, “How can all this be if there is no God?”
Then the Atheist looks around for other examples of this type of belief having the power to control and change things.

The Atheist sees this power in other gods and in created items like Santa Clause.

Now if this power exists then this God exists as a power in the eyes of the Atheist.

So now the Atheist is say that the “Power of God” does exist.

It is my understanding that an atheist is one who has seen the evidence and made the choice to believe that no God or gods exist.

Now your statement would be wrong because the Atheist does believe God exists, as a power anyway.

Just as a Christians can believe in Creation and Evolution.  The Atheist can believe in God and no God.

In a nutshell that is what we are trying to solve here. Do you see it this way too?

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Posted: 26 July 2013 03:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 221 ]
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Mike,

No I don’t agree because you go off on too many tangents that have nothing to do with the definition of atheist. 

Since the existence of God cannot be proven either way, both a theist and an atheist have a belief concerning the existence of God.  Their positions are by faith since no proof exists.

It has nothing to do with God being the Creator or anyone’s definition of a “good Catholic.”  Nor does it matter whether a theist believes in creation or evolution.  If he believes in God, he is a theist.  If he believes no God exists, he’s an atheist.  That’s the end of it.

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Posted: 26 July 2013 05:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 222 ]
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The Atheist believes that the “Power of God” is a phenomena that exists where Christian thought can create a supposed being of Power derived from the gospels by faith and belief that is perceived to have the ability to create and to destroy, to govern and control the destinies of nations and individuals, to accomplish all his purposes, and to do his will throughout the physical and spiritual universe.

So he can not be a theist because the theist believes in God as the Creator.
Yet, because the Atheist believes in the Power of God so he can not be a Atheist.
Now if he is not a Theist and not a Atheist, what is he?

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Posted: 27 July 2013 07:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 223 ]
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Here we go again.  I don’t know what “Atheist” you’re talking about, Mike, but he doesn’t sound like any atheist I know.

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Posted: 27 July 2013 07:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 224 ]
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No I don’t agree because you go off on too many tangents that have nothing to do with the definition of atheist.

That’s pretty much what he’s been doing for 15 pages.

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Posted: 27 July 2013 08:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 225 ]
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Advocatus,
I understand what you are saying. But I also bet that you do not know any atheist that can communicate very understandably with the Christians either.

In the world today you have billions of Christians and Muslims who believe, pray and praise the creator God.  Millions of churches and institutions operating around the world in the name of this creator God.

So advocatus how do you explain this?

Do you recognize there being any power of any kind holding these billions of people together in thought?

Do you think that these billions of people are just stupid and can’t understand?

Do you think that the Atheists are the only smart people who can see the big picture and understand that all the rest of the people are wrong?

We can go on and on, but I think you get the idea.

Now how do you explain that half the Christians in the United States do not believe in Creation? They believe in God’s Evolution and even the Pope goes along with God’s Evolution.

If the Creator God is not believed by the half the Christians to have created the earth in six days, then they would be classified as Atheists according to the definition use by the Atheists.

But they are not.

That is because half the Christians have moved from the “Creator of the World” to “The Power of God” in their belief system.

The Atheists need to keep up with the Christians.

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